NDB approaches in light aircraft
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If you are proficient at NDB approaches you are proficient at all the none precision approaches.
I haven't done a PAR for 3 years now, and wouldn't hesitate to take one if offered and you wonldn't know it had been 3 years.
Three years not having done any NDB work only ILS to ILS and it wouldn't be pretty in fact it would be downright ugly.
I haven't done a PAR for 3 years now, and wouldn't hesitate to take one if offered and you wonldn't know it had been 3 years.
Three years not having done any NDB work only ILS to ILS and it wouldn't be pretty in fact it would be downright ugly.
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Feel proud of yourself at having done NDB instrument approaches, especially in IMC conditions.
I recently interviewed a 12,000 hour jet pilot who'd never done an NDB approach ever in his entire life.
He didn't get the job.
I recently interviewed a 12,000 hour jet pilot who'd never done an NDB approach ever in his entire life.
He didn't get the job.
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If he is a 12,000 hour jet pilot, I'd be surprised if he hadn't been tested on NDB approaches during every other 6 monthly recurrent check. In my airline we have to demonstrate proficiency at least once a year, sometimes on single engine.
I take it the guy doesn't fly for a British airline ReverseFlight?
I take it the guy doesn't fly for a British airline ReverseFlight?
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Different country's have different ways of testing and if the TRE can't fly one himself they won't give one to the person being tested.
In theory EASA should stop this but as the test item is none precision approach some just use a loc approach due to being talent limited themselves.
In theory EASA should stop this but as the test item is none precision approach some just use a loc approach due to being talent limited themselves.
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My thoughts exactly mad_jock, its got to be someone who has flown for an overseas airline somewhere because here in the UK it is a VOR or LOC approach on one 6 monthly check but then it must be an NDB on the next 6 monthly. We do of course also fly them in anger from time to time. NTS is regular.
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Most commercial pilots who trained in the last 10 years won't have a clue about PAR's or for that matter SRA's shy.
Once out of the lane on top (or sometimes not) we were on our own. We used to keep a mental plot of position by requesting a couple of "true bearings" from local military airfields. For recovery we used to ask for a homing to the overhead (done on the DF screen) followed by a QGH letdown.
A QGH involved flying from the airfield "DF overhead" on an outbound heading corrected for estimated wind by the ATCO. After a timed outbound leg and initial descent, a level turn onto the inbound heading was flown. A further descent was then made to approach minima (650 ft IIRC).
The QGH pattern was fixed, the runway in use wasn't.....so sometimes a circling approach had to be made after sighting the airfield. Again, not easy because it was a grass field and the runways weren't strikingly obvious to pick out at the best of times, let alone in bad weather during a low level circuit.
Anyone else here done a DECCA letdown?
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Looking back, it does seem crazy that in a previous life we were routinely required to depart into IMC from our grass airfield in the Midlands
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Quite a good chance....
NDB approaches aren't the be all and end all of piloting skill that will magically turn you into some kind of Skygod if you can fly one, like some here are making out. It's just a skill, like any other, that isn't particularly difficult if done regularly but will perish if not.
I've flown plenty on LPC/OPCs, a few in anger and some just for the hell of it and the only thing I can meaningfully conclude from all this is that NDBs are useless.
Sometimes they work fine and you end up just where you want to be. Sometimes you fly the thing like a pro and pop out at minima a mile or so from where you were last time you flew the approach - even though the needles are reading the same. Sometimes you can be flying one nicely and the needle suddenly decides to take a 20 degree swing due to one of the myriad errors these archaic pieces of kit are prone to.
So... in conclusion, you'd be mad to use one where you have better options and it's about time they were phased out.
I've flown plenty on LPC/OPCs, a few in anger and some just for the hell of it and the only thing I can meaningfully conclude from all this is that NDBs are useless.
Sometimes they work fine and you end up just where you want to be. Sometimes you fly the thing like a pro and pop out at minima a mile or so from where you were last time you flew the approach - even though the needles are reading the same. Sometimes you can be flying one nicely and the needle suddenly decides to take a 20 degree swing due to one of the myriad errors these archaic pieces of kit are prone to.
So... in conclusion, you'd be mad to use one where you have better options and it's about time they were phased out.
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So... in conclusion, you'd be mad to use one where you have better options and it's about time they were phased out.
The fact that the NDB is taught in the initial IF course is IMO irrelevant. I teach IFR and absolutely we do some ADF work for all the good reasons MJ and others have brought up, it builds the core skills of aircraft control and Situational Awareness. But that doesn't change the fact that it is an obsolete approach aid that is the last choice for flying an actual approach.
Operationally I have not done a raw data NDB approach in 20 years. Fortunately North America is much more enlightened than Europe when it comes to the adoption of GPS approaches so there are very few (any ?) airports that have only an NDB approach without also having the option of at least an LNAV approach.
I think Europe is where North America was in the late 1990's. GPS was out there but the regulators had not caught up. At that time Canada had lots of little airports with only NDB approaches. For those, I would make a GPS user waypoint at the runway threshold. This gave me distance to touch down to manage the descent and avoided the requirement to dive and drive, and also gave accurate track guidance. If the ADF needle said I was right of track and the GPS needle said I was left of track than I would turn right. If they both agreed I would enjoy the happy coincidence.
But one thing never changed unlike the bad old days, pre GPS, the aircraft was always lined up with the centreline of the runway when I broke out.
Operationally I have not done a raw data NDB approach in 20 years. Fortunately North America is much more enlightened than Europe when it comes to the adoption of GPS approaches so there are very few (any ?) airports that have only an NDB approach without also having the option of at least an LNAV approach.
I think Europe is where North America was in the late 1990's. GPS was out there but the regulators had not caught up. At that time Canada had lots of little airports with only NDB approaches. For those, I would make a GPS user waypoint at the runway threshold. This gave me distance to touch down to manage the descent and avoided the requirement to dive and drive, and also gave accurate track guidance. If the ADF needle said I was right of track and the GPS needle said I was left of track than I would turn right. If they both agreed I would enjoy the happy coincidence.
But one thing never changed unlike the bad old days, pre GPS, the aircraft was always lined up with the centreline of the runway when I broke out.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 9th Feb 2014 at 16:36.
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Yes, I hate this new fangled equipment
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Not quite sure where you reside but there are four mil fields within ten minutes flying time of me.
Last edited by porterhouse; 9th Feb 2014 at 17:43.
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No one is promoting the wonders of NDB approaches in this modern world!
I am for one saying that flying an accurate NDB approach will give you fantastic spatial awareness and ability to constantly read winds!
If you are competent at flying an NDB approach no other approach will give you the slightest trouble as all the required skills are there in the NDB approach!
Pace
I am for one saying that flying an accurate NDB approach will give you fantastic spatial awareness and ability to constantly read winds!
If you are competent at flying an NDB approach no other approach will give you the slightest trouble as all the required skills are there in the NDB approach!
Pace
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Since none of the aircraft I fly is equipped with ADF perhaps I could play with Microsoft Flight Simulator to practice some NDB approaches and this only IF I thought it was worth my time. 
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don't bother with MSFS it doesn't do ADF dip.
Well you will all be pleased to know I survived my NDB approach this evening sans looking at the GPS which is mainly because it screws with my scan. And it was bleating about RIAM being out and it could only see 3 satellites. The fo got a sore finger from cancelling the message button. We got the lights at 600ft agl and landed in a snow shower.
Now home for tea and scones.
Well you will all be pleased to know I survived my NDB approach this evening sans looking at the GPS which is mainly because it screws with my scan. And it was bleating about RIAM being out and it could only see 3 satellites. The fo got a sore finger from cancelling the message button. We got the lights at 600ft agl and landed in a snow shower.
Now home for tea and scones.
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If you were stuck in cloud low on fuel and the nearest strip only had an NDB and you had an ADF, I think you would consider it worth your while! Why can't people just accept it as another "Get out of jail" card in their tool-box?