Ramp mummies.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
India Four TwoDan,
Did you see Adam's Dove pics?
Did you see Adam's Dove pics?
Dan
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: here
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always think it is so sad to see someone's [once] pride an joy like this and in my line of work I see many boats in a similar state and think about how many people would give almost anything to have the care to own and care for the aircraft (or boat).
HTC
HTC
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly from a strip near Farnham, in the Hangar there is a Jodel that sits in the corner rotting away, again, I believe the owner has been approached and will not sell
There was also a Beagle Pup outside that looked as though it was falling to bits - arrived at the field one day to find the door had come open and was swinging in the wind - this one the owner apparently turned up once in a blue moon, climbed in and flew it! God knows what maintenance/checks were being done on it!! Not there now - been flown elsewhere!
There was also a Beagle Pup outside that looked as though it was falling to bits - arrived at the field one day to find the door had come open and was swinging in the wind - this one the owner apparently turned up once in a blue moon, climbed in and flew it! God knows what maintenance/checks were being done on it!! Not there now - been flown elsewhere!
looks like it would make a good project.
You must have a lot of time, money and enthusiam. That Dove is only slightly down the difficulty scale from rebuilding a Mosquito!
My idea of a project, next time I am in Tauranga, is to walk up to the owners of NZ1808 and say "Can I have a go, mate?"
Last edited by India Four Two; 6th Feb 2014 at 10:12.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dan,
You must have a lot of time, money and enthusiam. That Dove is only slightly down the difficulty scale from rebuilding a Mosquito!
You must have a lot of time, money and enthusiam. That Dove is only slightly down the difficulty scale from rebuilding a Mosquito!
Doves arn't that bad! once you get past all the British imperial fittings and the list of Airworthiness Directives that are longer than the deadsea scrolls there is really not much wrong with them
running costs now that is an issue, 140 ltrs per hour fuel burn and probably similar for oil! I still love them though
Cheers, Dan
Dan,
140 litres an hour? Peanuts! Another DH product I've flown a couple of times (briefly) is like seven Doves in formation - the Vampire T11
British Imperial fittings. That takes me back to my motorcycle days - three sets of spanners (BSW, BSF and BA) and oil stained shoes!
I love all DH types. I have flown in more DH types than any other manufacturer and have stick time in quite a few of them. My first-ever flight was a joyride in a Dragon Rapide. I flew in a Devon from Shawbury to Aldergrove and back in 1968 and coincidentally in a Queen's Flight Heron on the same route the previous week. That caused some consternation at Aldergrove when a bright red Heron appeared out of the clouds and the Station Commander scrambled to meet us. He was not impressed when a bunch of scruffy (by RAF standards) UAS students in flying suits came down the steps!
140 litres an hour? Peanuts! Another DH product I've flown a couple of times (briefly) is like seven Doves in formation - the Vampire T11
British Imperial fittings. That takes me back to my motorcycle days - three sets of spanners (BSW, BSF and BA) and oil stained shoes!
I love all DH types. I have flown in more DH types than any other manufacturer and have stick time in quite a few of them. My first-ever flight was a joyride in a Dragon Rapide. I flew in a Devon from Shawbury to Aldergrove and back in 1968 and coincidentally in a Queen's Flight Heron on the same route the previous week. That caused some consternation at Aldergrove when a bright red Heron appeared out of the clouds and the Station Commander scrambled to meet us. He was not impressed when a bunch of scruffy (by RAF standards) UAS students in flying suits came down the steps!
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ind
There is an Ex WQueens flight heron for sale ATM wonder if its the same one
1958 DeHavilland DH114 14130 N82D For Sale on ASO.com
Any way back on Topic Ramp mummies, a couple of Dove/Devon ramp mummie from my collection, taken in the 90's
Devon/Dove EX RNZAF NZ1818 then to VH-CJY. taken at Jandikot 1995 moved to victoria in the 2000's but its trail has gone cold, if anyone has info it would be great.
Another Devon Ex RNZAF NZ1817 taken at Mildura 1992, now in the ands of a private collector
The Sherburn Collection
ia Four Two-
Queen's Flight Heron on the same route the previous week. That caused some consternation at Aldergrove when a bright red Heron appeared out of the clouds and the Station Commander scrambled to meet us. He was not impressed when a bunch of scruffy (by RAF standards) UAS students in flying suits came down the steps!
Queen's Flight Heron on the same route the previous week. That caused some consternation at Aldergrove when a bright red Heron appeared out of the clouds and the Station Commander scrambled to meet us. He was not impressed when a bunch of scruffy (by RAF standards) UAS students in flying suits came down the steps!
1958 DeHavilland DH114 14130 N82D For Sale on ASO.com
Any way back on Topic Ramp mummies, a couple of Dove/Devon ramp mummie from my collection, taken in the 90's
Devon/Dove EX RNZAF NZ1818 then to VH-CJY. taken at Jandikot 1995 moved to victoria in the 2000's but its trail has gone cold, if anyone has info it would be great.
Another Devon Ex RNZAF NZ1817 taken at Mildura 1992, now in the ands of a private collector
I deleted to pictures as i could not resize them and they were way too big!
so here is the link to the gallery they are in instead.
so here is the link to the gallery they are in instead.
Last edited by DanS333; 10th Feb 2014 at 01:41.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That reminds me of when I used to work in a tooling warehouse. Customers would come in with a bolt and ask for 10 more of the same. Well it looks like 3/8" but what the hell thread is that? Commence my running around comparing it to every bolt of that size in the building.
Metric was much easier. Except for that time when I was asked for a M10 tap and supplied a M10x1.25, only to have the customer come back later and ask me why his bolts didn't fit the holes he'd tapped!
Metric was much easier. Except for that time when I was asked for a M10 tap and supplied a M10x1.25, only to have the customer come back later and ask me why his bolts didn't fit the holes he'd tapped!
Still got my Whit/BSF/BA tools somewhere, quietly gathering dust in their third or fourth retirement. 
For the benefit of the youngsters out there, the BA spanners were needed to exclusively deal with the products of Lucas - the Prince of Darkness.
Dan,
Thanks, I had a look at the aso.com ad.
I think Aunty Betty would be horrified at the paint scheme that has been applied to her old aerial carriage.
Thanks, I had a look at the aso.com ad.
I think Aunty Betty would be horrified at the paint scheme that has been applied to her old aerial carriage.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There seems to be a bit of confusion, here.....Whitworth was a coarse thread, the first standardised one in the world, afaik.
BSF (british standard fine) was the engineering alternative to the "agricultural " BSW the spanners were all dual-marked. IE 1/4W-5/16bsf the other end being 3/16-1/4 or 5/16-3/8 Thus, a set would always have 2 ends the same size to tighten /loosen a nut and bolt
Then, after the war, around the mid-1950's we adopted the American Unified system....UNC and UNF They were different, in that a1/4 bolt had the same head-size (measured A/F - across the flats0 IIrc,a1/2 AF fits a 1/4 bolt or nut....the smaller sizes are almost identical to the Whit/BSF range and can, at a pinch, interchange....above 1/4" the pitches diverge and , IIrc, a 5/16 unified will foul a BS counterpart after about 1 1/2 turns...Unified can be identified by a ring stamped in one end of the nut,or a chain of small rings down one flat. the bolt has a circular depression un the head, ir 3 equally-spaced radial lines.
British Association was a standard electrical thread....not only beloved of the prince of darkness ( parody on the Joseph Lucas slogan "King of the road" ) All domestic electrical fittings were standardised as to spacing and thread, thus a single switch had 2 x 2BA screws at, IIRC 2 3/8"centres.......then we went Metric the imperial centres were retained , but we now used 3.5 MM screws, whichlooked identical but, of course, jammed solid after ~2 turns......re-tapping the sunken box was one option, re-using the old BA screws was another. Istill come across BA screws in boxes!
When the tool business went a bit quiet (coinciding with the influx of foreign cars, ) we went metric in the engineering-trades. Again, a few thou difference on some spanner-sixes....1/2 AF = a very tight fit on a rusted/worn 13MM head...14 MM is tight on a 9/16
Metric coarse and UNF are fairly similar to look at, but not at all compatible...Metric Fine is a bit unusual....again as referred to byA500 man there are some anomalous sizes where 2 different pitches are used for a standard diameter....also, the head-size does not necessarily always bear the same relationship to the actual bolt diameter..
Metric spanners are quoted AF...so that's the head-size across flats, not the shank diameter.
A real oddball....British Cycle thread!....that's why those pressed-tin multi-hole bike spanners never fitted anything else! Threads were very fine pitch and shallow, for the diameter.
Ireally must get out more!
BSF (british standard fine) was the engineering alternative to the "agricultural " BSW the spanners were all dual-marked. IE 1/4W-5/16bsf the other end being 3/16-1/4 or 5/16-3/8 Thus, a set would always have 2 ends the same size to tighten /loosen a nut and bolt
Then, after the war, around the mid-1950's we adopted the American Unified system....UNC and UNF They were different, in that a1/4 bolt had the same head-size (measured A/F - across the flats0 IIrc,a1/2 AF fits a 1/4 bolt or nut....the smaller sizes are almost identical to the Whit/BSF range and can, at a pinch, interchange....above 1/4" the pitches diverge and , IIrc, a 5/16 unified will foul a BS counterpart after about 1 1/2 turns...Unified can be identified by a ring stamped in one end of the nut,or a chain of small rings down one flat. the bolt has a circular depression un the head, ir 3 equally-spaced radial lines.
British Association was a standard electrical thread....not only beloved of the prince of darkness ( parody on the Joseph Lucas slogan "King of the road"
) All domestic electrical fittings were standardised as to spacing and thread, thus a single switch had 2 x 2BA screws at, IIRC 2 3/8"centres.......then we went Metric the imperial centres were retained , but we now used 3.5 MM screws, whichlooked identical but, of course, jammed solid after ~2 turns......re-tapping the sunken box was one option, re-using the old BA screws was another. Istill come across BA screws in boxes!When the tool business went a bit quiet (coinciding with the influx of foreign cars, ) we went metric in the engineering-trades. Again, a few thou difference on some spanner-sixes....1/2 AF = a very tight fit on a rusted/worn 13MM head...14 MM is tight on a 9/16
Metric coarse and UNF are fairly similar to look at, but not at all compatible...Metric Fine is a bit unusual....again as referred to byA500 man there are some anomalous sizes where 2 different pitches are used for a standard diameter....also, the head-size does not necessarily always bear the same relationship to the actual bolt diameter..
Metric spanners are quoted AF...so that's the head-size across flats, not the shank diameter.
A real oddball....British Cycle thread!....that's why those pressed-tin multi-hole bike spanners never fitted anything else! Threads were very fine pitch and shallow, for the diameter.
Ireally must get out more!
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cockney steveThere seems to be a bit of confusion, here.....
( though I do have a 1958 MF 65 tractor and dont seem to have any spanners that fit it!)
i am lost
Your post does go part way to explaining why my father would always be telling me off for using his old spanners on my push bike claiming they were the wrong size
, they seemed to fit in my eyes 
.also when i was a kid hanging around the Rudge Air hangar there was a tool box marked "Dove Only"
Cheers, Dan
P.S seems like this subject could have a thread of its own!
P.S seems like this subject could have a thread of its own!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, Dan, i'll try to simplificate 
Can't be bothered to giggle it all, so you'll have to accept my fragile memory, or giggle it yourself.
Up until Mr. Whitworth, every user made their own thread, to their own profile,with their own head-size.
Whitworth laid out a table ofdiameters thread form, threads per inch and ratio of head-size to shank diameter.
Along came the finer-pitch BSF which had a smaller head in relation to the shank, but these were the same sizes as Whit. heads,except the shank was thicker....hence a1/4 W spanner fitted a 5/16 BSF fastener.
THE SIZE DESIGNATED, WAS THE SHANK DIAMETER
The American AF system (Across Flats ) designated the head size...an open-ended 1/2 AF spanner is 1/2 inch nominal between the jaws. there is, again, a direct correlation between head and shank size, unlike the old British standards, it is a constant, irrespective of thread pitch....a 1/2 AF spanner will fit (iirc) a 5/16 unified fastener, wether it be coarse (unc) or fine (unf)
metric system ...broadly similar to the unified system in that a mechanic will often refer to "a 13-mil bolt" but means one with a 13mm AF head
All threads, with the exception of Metric, have a consistent pitch/diameter ratio....for a given type (say, UNC,) the threads per inch-length (pitch) will lessen as the diameter increases.
broadly, that applies with Metric, but there are a couple of "oddballs" where the pitch is as expected, but also, the same diameter can have a pitch associated with the next size-step.
As I said....the continual evolution is good business for the tool manufacturers.
"philips" screws???...are you sure it's not a Reed and Prince (very common on Jap consumer-goods) or a Pozidrive? they're allcross-point but there the similarity ends A philips driver will bodge a poz. screw in, but a poz. driver won't seat in a Philips head....neither will properly do a R&P head!
All, of course, claim their advantages. Fasteners are an engineering subject in their own right, i've only scratched the surface here!
Can't be bothered to giggle it all, so you'll have to accept my fragile memory, or giggle it yourself.Up until Mr. Whitworth, every user made their own thread, to their own profile,with their own head-size.
Whitworth laid out a table ofdiameters thread form, threads per inch and ratio of head-size to shank diameter.
Along came the finer-pitch BSF which had a smaller head in relation to the shank, but these were the same sizes as Whit. heads,except the shank was thicker....hence a1/4 W spanner fitted a 5/16 BSF fastener.
THE SIZE DESIGNATED, WAS THE SHANK DIAMETER
The American AF system (Across Flats ) designated the head size...an open-ended 1/2 AF spanner is 1/2 inch nominal between the jaws. there is, again, a direct correlation between head and shank size, unlike the old British standards, it is a constant, irrespective of thread pitch....a 1/2 AF spanner will fit (iirc) a 5/16 unified fastener, wether it be coarse (unc) or fine (unf)
metric system ...broadly similar to the unified system in that a mechanic will often refer to "a 13-mil bolt" but means one with a 13mm AF head
All threads, with the exception of Metric, have a consistent pitch/diameter ratio....for a given type (say, UNC,) the threads per inch-length (pitch) will lessen as the diameter increases.
broadly, that applies with Metric, but there are a couple of "oddballs" where the pitch is as expected, but also, the same diameter can have a pitch associated with the next size-step.
As I said....the continual evolution is good business for the tool manufacturers.
"philips" screws???...are you sure it's not a Reed and Prince (very common on Jap consumer-goods) or a Pozidrive? they're allcross-point but there the similarity ends A philips driver will bodge a poz. screw in, but a poz. driver won't seat in a Philips head....neither will properly do a R&P head!
All, of course, claim their advantages. Fasteners are an engineering subject in their own right, i've only scratched the surface here!
Fasteners are an engineering subject in their own right, i've only scratched the surface here!
In One Good Turn there is a detailed description of how the Philips screw was invented and came to the forefront, when it was adopted by the auto industry. In the same chapter, is the story of the Robertson screw and how it failed to be widely adopted, due to the reluctance of Mr. Robertson to give up control of his invention. It is still widely used in Canada and in my opinion is without doubt the best kind of screw head. It has a slightly tapered square socket and consequently, a screw can be firmly attached to the Robertson screw driver and then eased at any angle into spaces, where you cannot insert your fingers or pliers to hold the screw.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ India four two......You have a lovely daughter.......I'm jealous of your book
but, I have a set of Robertson plug-in screwdriver tips, so there!
IIRC, the Philips was developed in Canada ,for assembling washing machines, as flat, slotted screws would allow the driver to slip out and skate across the paint, scratching it......overtightning and shearing the head off was another problem......the Philips was designed to "cam -out"if overtightening was attempted........Pozidrive was developed to work the opposite way. IE to not slip at all.
ADAM ..... Sorry to sidetrack your thread.......so sad to see those lovely, polished aircraft,but with perished tyres and knowing they would be unviable to bring up to standard again.......What about shipping one here and gettingit on a Permit?
but, I have a set of Robertson plug-in screwdriver tips, so there!
IIRC, the Philips was developed in Canada ,for assembling washing machines, as flat, slotted screws would allow the driver to slip out and skate across the paint, scratching it......overtightning and shearing the head off was another problem......the Philips was designed to "cam -out"if overtightening was attempted........Pozidrive was developed to work the opposite way. IE to not slip at all.
ADAM ..... Sorry to sidetrack your thread.......so sad to see those lovely, polished aircraft,but with perished tyres and knowing they would be unviable to bring up to standard again.......What about shipping one here and gettingit on a Permit?
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is another Dove, this pic is Via my website courtesy of Dick Winterburn
Does anyone know if there is any way to resize the pictures in the post?
I had to resize this one on the website before linking
Cheers, Dan
Riley Turbo 400 Dove, Wallan Airfield 2004
Does anyone know if there is any way to resize the pictures in the post?
I had to resize this one on the website before linking
Cheers, Dan
Riley Turbo 400 Dove, Wallan Airfield 2004
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Adam, I landed at El Monte today and noticed a twin parked up that looked like your old one, it's call sign is N20VL is that it.? I took a pic while taxiing by, not sure how to post it though