Wing down during final approach.
Glendalegoon, you could be construed a being just a tad patronising in your posts here. There are plenty of pilots in this forum who have more hands on time than most airline pilots. Note I say hands on......
So, I for one would appreciate a less didactic approach to what is an interesting discussion. Thank you for listening.
Oh, and I am capable of doing a crab approach. I prefer wing down. My choice.
So, I for one would appreciate a less didactic approach to what is an interesting discussion. Thank you for listening.
Oh, and I am capable of doing a crab approach. I prefer wing down. My choice.
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Right or wrong I've been using the wing-down approach on my Jodel for a long time now.
Jodels, I am informed, have an undercarriage that can't take much of a sideload and crabbing is riskier than wind-down
Happy to be corrected on this, but after all these years, my preference is clear
Jodels, I am informed, have an undercarriage that can't take much of a sideload and crabbing is riskier than wind-down
Happy to be corrected on this, but after all these years, my preference is clear
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Jodels, I am informed, have an undercarriage that can't take much of a side load and crabbing is riskier than wind-down
Not wanting to be rude or personal but what has the side loading of a model got to do with the crab approach ?
Unless you are saying that the pilot does not have the skills to land straight off a crab which would side load the aircraft.
In that case its a sad reflection of basic pilot skills not the aircraft.
are we churning out aircraft drivers rather than pilots nowadays ?
Pace
There is nothing more satisfying than a nicely executed one wheel touchdown in a strong crosswind. Then again, the takeoff is harder to get the exact amount of wing down to counter the crosswind as wheel friction can be a factor prior to liftoff. To rotate perfectly up on one wheel, then to lift off and set the right crab for departure all in one fluid moment is fun too. I am all for crabbing on departure.
Bryan
Bryan
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Actually no they don't glendalegoon, you'll be in total control all the way if you fly the cross control technique correctly. Some folk here are describing it at as side slip manoeuvre but it's not as extreme as that.
Please don't feel like I am being to anal about this Sapco2, I am sort of what could be described as a purist when it comes to the art of flying and that is probably because of the environments in which I learned to fly.
Sooooo for those of you who have not read my ideas on how to fly before, here is what made me so picky about airplane handling skills....
......seven years aerial application ( both fixed and rotary wing. ) ......eight years flying DC3's in Canada's north and high Arctic, mostly off airports........fifteen years as Captain on heavy water scoopers fire bombing.....and at the end of my career eight years flying in the air show circuit in Europe.
So as one can see I probably have been programmed to be extra demanding in how to fly an aircraft.
There now I hope ya'all cut me some slack for being so anal.
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Pace
I hear what you say. I think it is true that some super skygods are consistently good at landing whatever option they choose. Some are less good.
I learnt from an instructor with a lot of Jodel time, so his is the way I've chosen.
I hear what you say. I think it is true that some super skygods are consistently good at landing whatever option they choose. Some are less good.
I learnt from an instructor with a lot of Jodel time, so his is the way I've chosen.
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are we churning out aircraft drivers rather than pilots nowadays ?
Pace
Pace
http://i.imgur.com/Zr6AT8s.jpg
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piper classique:
the internet allows only you to perceive how you perceive a post. a statement of fact is only patronizing to those who think they are patronized.
chuck is right, there is a difference between a forward slip and a side slip.
the internet allows only you to perceive how you perceive a post. a statement of fact is only patronizing to those who think they are patronized.
chuck is right, there is a difference between a forward slip and a side slip.
Last edited by glendalegoon; 30th Jan 2014 at 23:33.
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Robin
You do what you are most comfortable with For me the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the vast majority of pilots from PPLs to Professional crab.
Unless its some new undiscovered technique which it is not then the vast majority would use that technique rather than crabbing and I am afraid they do not for obvious reasons to me.
Pace
You do what you are most comfortable with
For me the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the vast majority of pilots from PPLs to Professional crab.Unless its some new undiscovered technique which it is not then the vast majority would use that technique rather than crabbing and I am afraid they do not for obvious reasons to me.
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Nice one Chuck!
I reckon the wing down technique is for those who can't do it properly.
Probably because their instructors couldn't either.
Drivers, pilots, artists. If you don't even know the difference, you're a driver.
I reckon the wing down technique is for those who can't do it properly.
Probably because their instructors couldn't either.
Drivers, pilots, artists. If you don't even know the difference, you're a driver.
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As a driver, pilot and artist I'd say that both techniques have their merits and a fully rounded pilot should be equally capable of using either technique as circumstances dictate.
I'm always nervous of any one in aviation who insights that only one technique is correct and appropriate for all circumstances - not so!
Happy landings
3 Point
I'm always nervous of any one in aviation who insights that only one technique is correct and appropriate for all circumstances - not so!
Happy landings
3 Point
3 point
I agree entirely! I've taught both, flown both. Interesting but pointless discussion - in my humble opinion.
Wing down. Works very well in high wing types. Also, bit off thread but it's what the autopilot does on the 744 on an autoland in a crosswind.
Crabbing works well but I used to tell my students it's like telling a joke. It's all about........timing.
Edited to add. The Jumbo uses BOTH. fancy that!
I agree entirely! I've taught both, flown both. Interesting but pointless discussion - in my humble opinion.
Wing down. Works very well in high wing types. Also, bit off thread but it's what the autopilot does on the 744 on an autoland in a crosswind.
Crabbing works well but I used to tell my students it's like telling a joke. It's all about........timing.
Edited to add. The Jumbo uses BOTH. fancy that!
Like many things in flying there is more than one "right" way to do many manoeuvres.
Like most pilots my definition of the right way to do pretty much everything has evolved over my flying career. I have improved on things that worked for me when I was new to flying as I gained the experience to finesse my flying. Conversely things I had no problem doing when I was younger are now items I no longer want to do.
Saying you are a lesser pilot because you only land with the wing down method IMO speaks more about ego driven posturing than any real desire to have a conversation and I have never met a pilot who had nothing left to learn.
The bottom line from my POV is it doesn't matter what method you use, the important thing is to do it well. That means precise control of the airspeed, flight path and line up on the final approach. This only comes from practice and a genuine desire to strive to be better.
Like most pilots my definition of the right way to do pretty much everything has evolved over my flying career. I have improved on things that worked for me when I was new to flying as I gained the experience to finesse my flying. Conversely things I had no problem doing when I was younger are now items I no longer want to do.
Saying you are a lesser pilot because you only land with the wing down method IMO speaks more about ego driven posturing than any real desire to have a conversation and I have never met a pilot who had nothing left to learn.
The bottom line from my POV is it doesn't matter what method you use, the important thing is to do it well. That means precise control of the airspeed, flight path and line up on the final approach. This only comes from practice and a genuine desire to strive to be better.
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There is no 'Chuck method', likewise there is no 'my method'. Both are recognised procedures taught by our predecessors. Fly the one that suits you best.
I do however believe there is merit in exploring both techniques. I am also aware there are pilots who can handle drift whilst crabbing in the flare. Conversely though, there are many bad examples, recorded on video where jet and light aircraft pilots have fouled up rather badly using that very technique.
I am an open minded sort of bloke, so happy to be proven wrong. However the reason I remain such a strong advocator of the cross control technique is because I have YET to witness the technique go wrong.
Happy landings everyone!
I do however believe there is merit in exploring both techniques. I am also aware there are pilots who can handle drift whilst crabbing in the flare. Conversely though, there are many bad examples, recorded on video where jet and light aircraft pilots have fouled up rather badly using that very technique.
I am an open minded sort of bloke, so happy to be proven wrong. However the reason I remain such a strong advocator of the cross control technique is because I have YET to witness the technique go wrong.
Happy landings everyone!
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O.K. gang this was a good discussion for quite a while but I see we are back to insults again.
So I'm out of this because nowhere have I said side slipping is not a useful method of correcting for drift during an approach and landing.
I did say that I personally do not use a side slip way out on the final approach because for me it serves no useful purpose.
To bad these conversations have to degenerate into insults to make a point.
But hey....I have another idea....those of you who feel some of us are just ego driven with no interest in constructive conversations are free to take this thread and make it more professional.
I left Avcanada because most every thread ends up with bitter comments regardless of the original intent of the person who started the thread.
Maybe the internet with its comfort zone of anonymity is not the place for me because I have this flaw of not being afraid to communicate using my real name.
So I'm out of this because nowhere have I said side slipping is not a useful method of correcting for drift during an approach and landing.
I did say that I personally do not use a side slip way out on the final approach because for me it serves no useful purpose.
To bad these conversations have to degenerate into insults to make a point.
But hey....I have another idea....those of you who feel some of us are just ego driven with no interest in constructive conversations are free to take this thread and make it more professional.
I left Avcanada because most every thread ends up with bitter comments regardless of the original intent of the person who started the thread.
Maybe the internet with its comfort zone of anonymity is not the place for me because I have this flaw of not being afraid to communicate using my real name.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 31st Jan 2014 at 00:50.
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Er...vary the amount of crab? Out of interest how would you land a 25m span glider in a strong xwind? Genuine question.
If you read some of my other posts on this subject (possibly another thread), you will see I have always pointed out that you use correct technique for the aircraft you are flying so yes, I would use more crab for the glider, though most gliders the wings have a fair amount of dihedral with the wings mid level so not quite the problem you seem to imply - probably less so than say a Pa28!
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I've always been tempted to side slip to centreline on microlights; I did with gliders.
I've stayed with the heavy A/C crab approach nonetheless. A couple of months back, I ballooned, hesitated and stalled. I wonder if my aeroplane would have survived a side slip stall?
I've stayed with the heavy A/C crab approach nonetheless. A couple of months back, I ballooned, hesitated and stalled. I wonder if my aeroplane would have survived a side slip stall?
I've used the 'crab' technique in everything I've ever flown, from Cessna 150, Chipmunk and PA-28, for example, to Buccaneer, F-4, Vulcan and VC10.
One very important point is that the approach speed must not be excessive if the aircraft is to behave as the designers intended in the flare. Use POH values, do not add an extra 5 knots for the wife and kids and all will be fine.
Otherwise, as you align the aircraft with the runway centreline during the flare, it will float and drift off downwind, which is extremely difficult to correct neatly.
There is NO 'kicking' in the flare - except afterwards by the instructor to the student if he used excessive rudder inputs! One flies with the correct drift applied to track the runway centreline, then yaws the aircraft to align it with the runway at the same rate that the flare is initiated, maintaining wings level as necessary with aileron. The VC10 had pretty heavy controls (requiring both hands on the yoke and power settings called for the flight engineer to set) and a powerful rudder system, it also had a significantly swept wing which would cause excessive roll if yawed too abruptly. Although the aircraft had a 28 kt dry crosswind limit, I once landed on the limit at RAF Mount Pleasant and found it quite demanding, but straightforward enough. I asked for the wind readout after landing and ATC advised that it had been well over 35 kt directly across the RW.....
I've had a few demonstrations of the 'wing down' technique in light aeroplanes and found it thoroughly unnatural and unnecessary. Of course those who maintain excessive IAS during the approach and then fly one wheel onto the ground, waiting for the speed to decrease before levelling the wings, can do so if they feel so inclined - but why? A wings-level balanced approach tracking the centreline, followed by a smoothly controlled 'de-crab' and flare works every time if the correct approach speed is used.
One very important point is that the approach speed must not be excessive if the aircraft is to behave as the designers intended in the flare. Use POH values, do not add an extra 5 knots for the wife and kids and all will be fine.
Otherwise, as you align the aircraft with the runway centreline during the flare, it will float and drift off downwind, which is extremely difficult to correct neatly.
There is NO 'kicking' in the flare - except afterwards by the instructor to the student if he used excessive rudder inputs! One flies with the correct drift applied to track the runway centreline, then yaws the aircraft to align it with the runway at the same rate that the flare is initiated, maintaining wings level as necessary with aileron. The VC10 had pretty heavy controls (requiring both hands on the yoke and power settings called for the flight engineer to set) and a powerful rudder system, it also had a significantly swept wing which would cause excessive roll if yawed too abruptly. Although the aircraft had a 28 kt dry crosswind limit, I once landed on the limit at RAF Mount Pleasant and found it quite demanding, but straightforward enough. I asked for the wind readout after landing and ATC advised that it had been well over 35 kt directly across the RW.....
I've had a few demonstrations of the 'wing down' technique in light aeroplanes and found it thoroughly unnatural and unnecessary. Of course those who maintain excessive IAS during the approach and then fly one wheel onto the ground, waiting for the speed to decrease before levelling the wings, can do so if they feel so inclined - but why? A wings-level balanced approach tracking the centreline, followed by a smoothly controlled 'de-crab' and flare works every time if the correct approach speed is used.
Last edited by BEagle; 31st Jan 2014 at 09:41.
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Yes you can vary the amount of crab - personally I have always found that doing this is a LOT less instinctive and slower than varying the wing down and leaves a low hour pilot behind the aircraft.
Out of interest though I'm taking up a very kind offer from an infinitely more experienced airman than me to show me the slip approach and make up my own mind as to the merits of both methods.