Stinson Aircraft
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Stinson Aircraft
Does anyone have any experience of owning,operating and or flying a Stinson??
I would be grateful for any information at all. Good or Bad.
Best regards and thanks in advance.
HJ
I would be grateful for any information at all. Good or Bad.
Best regards and thanks in advance.
HJ
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Hi not really of any help but my father flew them with the FAA , sorry it was the Stinson Reliant he flew which might be a different aeroplane
cheers Gordon
cheers Gordon
Last edited by gpugh; 22nd Jan 2014 at 07:10.
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An acquaintance had a 108 he flew. He put big Alaska tundra wheels on his and used it for bush and mountain flying. He loved it. Finally the Franklin engine and a landing mishap that dented it prompted a switch to a Cessna 185. Stinson's were called the "Cadillacs of the sky" by some. Good quality, well built apparently.
I have a few hours flying a friends 108-3. It had the 165 hp Franklin which was a nice running smooth engine.
PRO's.
-It is a tail dragger
- Looks nice
- Roomy cabin
Cons
- Engine is an orphan and parts may be an issue
- Poor vis
- Horrible mushy ineffective ailerons
- Big tail and small rudder makes it a bit of a handful in a crosswind
Overall it did not really impress me. I much prefer the Cessna 170B
PRO's.
-It is a tail dragger
- Looks nice
- Roomy cabin
Cons
- Engine is an orphan and parts may be an issue
- Poor vis
- Horrible mushy ineffective ailerons
- Big tail and small rudder makes it a bit of a handful in a crosswind
Overall it did not really impress me. I much prefer the Cessna 170B
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Stinson.
Thanks very much for this so far. Tundra tyres would be smashing fun but it's only the small engine. Might be easier to get parts and spares for though.
Thanks again everyone.
Thanks again everyone.
Stinson 108s are well known for their excellent control harmony and super smooth engine. They are also very strongly built, although like any large tube and fabric aircraft they are very labor intensive if a total airframe rebuild/recover is required. They are not fast, 100 mph or a bit more, but are relatively easy to fly and carry a good load. The wing is notable for having slots, which make the ailerons work well but probably contribute to the low cruise speed.
They are small inside, particularly in the back, relative to their outside dimensions. Some were sold as 'flying station wagons' and had quickly removable rear seats.
Some had 150 HP Franklin engines from the factory and some had 165 HP. An issue with the Franklins is original type crankcase versus heavy case. The heavy cases don't crack. Franklin was sold to the Polish in the mid-70s, but they never did a lot with it and don't 'support' the engines. On N-register the Franklins are more-or-less maintainable on C of A using STC'd and reworked used parts. Quite a few of them have been converted to Continental O-470 engines (same as a C182) and this is apparently a very nice conversion, popular in Alaska.
Some like the small fin pre -3 models better, some prefer the -3. Neither is considered clearly better.
Beautiful stately aircraft.
PS the Stinson 105 was the prewar version - a three seater with a smaller four cylinder engine, either Franklin or Continental.
They are small inside, particularly in the back, relative to their outside dimensions. Some were sold as 'flying station wagons' and had quickly removable rear seats.
Some had 150 HP Franklin engines from the factory and some had 165 HP. An issue with the Franklins is original type crankcase versus heavy case. The heavy cases don't crack. Franklin was sold to the Polish in the mid-70s, but they never did a lot with it and don't 'support' the engines. On N-register the Franklins are more-or-less maintainable on C of A using STC'd and reworked used parts. Quite a few of them have been converted to Continental O-470 engines (same as a C182) and this is apparently a very nice conversion, popular in Alaska.
Some like the small fin pre -3 models better, some prefer the -3. Neither is considered clearly better.
Beautiful stately aircraft.
PS the Stinson 105 was the prewar version - a three seater with a smaller four cylinder engine, either Franklin or Continental.
Last edited by Silvaire1; 22nd Jan 2014 at 01:59.
Yes, quite a lot.
I part owned an S108-2 for half a dozen years, about 120hrs on type, including some instructing.
Fire away with your questions, but quick summary:-
- About 780lb useable payload
- Handling is 90% excellent, few gotchas. The two main gotchas are too much directional stability and not really enough rudder power on take-off (compounded by brake mechanisation that automatically leads in brakes as full rudder is reached), and it's much too easy to inadvertently bleed speed off in climb out.
- Checkouts should put the checkee in the right hand seat first, as there are no brakes there!
- Good view out, except behind or up
- Needs around 600m runway for departure, about half that for arrival
- Most airframe and engine components can be sourced
- Franklin engine expertise is very hard to find (the reason we eventually sold ours)
- Utterly beautiful flying machine, that turns heads everywhere.
- 95kn cruise, burning about 40 litres/hr. Yes 40, the Franklin 6A4 is a thirsty engine.
- Fantastic cockpit ergonomics - but non-standard. Once you've got the hang of it, very hard to make mistakes.
- A little bit light in roll for routine flight IMC, but okayish. Similarly the standard panel layout isn't brilliant for instrument scan.
- Mediocre cockpit lighting for night flying, but good enough.
- Don't let the battery get flat, as to reach it you have to remove the pilots seat, which is a pain in the proverbial.
- Does seem to make pax airsick slightly more often than most things I fly.
Anything specific, just ask. I have a lot of notes I can email you, if you want them, PM me your email address.
G
I part owned an S108-2 for half a dozen years, about 120hrs on type, including some instructing.
Fire away with your questions, but quick summary:-
- About 780lb useable payload
- Handling is 90% excellent, few gotchas. The two main gotchas are too much directional stability and not really enough rudder power on take-off (compounded by brake mechanisation that automatically leads in brakes as full rudder is reached), and it's much too easy to inadvertently bleed speed off in climb out.
- Checkouts should put the checkee in the right hand seat first, as there are no brakes there!
- Good view out, except behind or up
- Needs around 600m runway for departure, about half that for arrival
- Most airframe and engine components can be sourced
- Franklin engine expertise is very hard to find (the reason we eventually sold ours)
- Utterly beautiful flying machine, that turns heads everywhere.
- 95kn cruise, burning about 40 litres/hr. Yes 40, the Franklin 6A4 is a thirsty engine.
- Fantastic cockpit ergonomics - but non-standard. Once you've got the hang of it, very hard to make mistakes.
- A little bit light in roll for routine flight IMC, but okayish. Similarly the standard panel layout isn't brilliant for instrument scan.
- Mediocre cockpit lighting for night flying, but good enough.
- Don't let the battery get flat, as to reach it you have to remove the pilots seat, which is a pain in the proverbial.
- Does seem to make pax airsick slightly more often than most things I fly.
Anything specific, just ask. I have a lot of notes I can email you, if you want them, PM me your email address.
G
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Stinson.
A very big thank you to everyone here for their help and input.
It is the HW-75 that I was thinking about but all information is good hence I just headed up Stinson.
Best regards
HJ.
It is the HW-75 that I was thinking about but all information is good hence I just headed up Stinson.
Best regards
HJ.
Here is some gen for you from a long time OZ Stinson owner-pilot-rebuilder.
All he has to say is based on many years hands on experience
Having done over 800 hours in Stinsons. His comments
are these , referring to what previous posters here have said.
1 You have about 1100 useful load. Four
pax 100 lb baggage and full fuel.
2 Agree about rudder effectiveness on take-off Rudder could have been a bit bigger, (Same area of rudder for
-3 . . big tail . . . and -1 and -2 .)
3 Incorrect about brake input at full rudder deflection.
The rudder pedal/rudder cables could not have been adjusted c correctly. This is a common problem for the uninitiated.
4 Bleed speed off in climb? Don't know what he can be talking about. There
is such a thing as elevator trim.
5 There are brakes on the right side of the -3, and you can get a kit,
which I have fitted, for brakes in the right seat for -1 & -2.
6 Is this chap a yank? . Anything less than a 10 000 foot sealed runway
looks short to them. It is placarded for one notch of flaps for
take-off. Many people ignore that. In Africa I operated for years out of a field 5327 feet elevation. Many hot days with density altitude way up.
I had seen a very short strip in the middle of the veldt, so practised at home
field. I got someone to pace the other strip out for me.Available was less than 800 feet.
I flew up to this strip, (It turned out to be a resort with hot springs,
about 3500' altitude.) When I left it was HOT . 1 pax and 1/2 fuel. The dirt strip was very rough. I walked along kicking the tufts of grass out. It was up hill
but a slight wind favoured an uphill take-off. On climb out it was so
hot the oil temp went to red line. I had to lower the nose to get speed
up to cool it.
7 Never let anyone who has only worked on Lycomings and
Continentals touch a Franklin. They will wreck it!
8 Cabin size. Small inside, again , sounds like a Yank. Their dimensions nowadays don't compare with the norm. I'm 6 foot and no problems. Pprobably not too much knee room in the back. I've never sat there.
9 1 had 150 and early -2. Early 165 had the "light case". There is an
AD to look for cracks every 100 hours, there are still a few flying,
Later 165 had the "heavy case" look for the casting numbers if in doubt.
There are only twelve 108s in Australia. Also two pre-war (HW 75/model 10/
105) One is being rebuilt in Queensland. The other will rot away before the owner (who doesn't fly) will sell. Pity.
Bear in mind that for the 190 hp Lycoming it is more difficult to get parts than for the Franklin.
I know of only two Reliants in Australia.
All he has to say is based on many years hands on experience
Having done over 800 hours in Stinsons. His comments
are these , referring to what previous posters here have said.
1 You have about 1100 useful load. Four
pax 100 lb baggage and full fuel.
2 Agree about rudder effectiveness on take-off Rudder could have been a bit bigger, (Same area of rudder for
-3 . . big tail . . . and -1 and -2 .)
3 Incorrect about brake input at full rudder deflection.
The rudder pedal/rudder cables could not have been adjusted c correctly. This is a common problem for the uninitiated.
4 Bleed speed off in climb? Don't know what he can be talking about. There
is such a thing as elevator trim.
5 There are brakes on the right side of the -3, and you can get a kit,
which I have fitted, for brakes in the right seat for -1 & -2.
6 Is this chap a yank? . Anything less than a 10 000 foot sealed runway
looks short to them. It is placarded for one notch of flaps for
take-off. Many people ignore that. In Africa I operated for years out of a field 5327 feet elevation. Many hot days with density altitude way up.
I had seen a very short strip in the middle of the veldt, so practised at home
field. I got someone to pace the other strip out for me.Available was less than 800 feet.
I flew up to this strip, (It turned out to be a resort with hot springs,
about 3500' altitude.) When I left it was HOT . 1 pax and 1/2 fuel. The dirt strip was very rough. I walked along kicking the tufts of grass out. It was up hill
but a slight wind favoured an uphill take-off. On climb out it was so
hot the oil temp went to red line. I had to lower the nose to get speed
up to cool it.
7 Never let anyone who has only worked on Lycomings and
Continentals touch a Franklin. They will wreck it!
8 Cabin size. Small inside, again , sounds like a Yank. Their dimensions nowadays don't compare with the norm. I'm 6 foot and no problems. Pprobably not too much knee room in the back. I've never sat there.
9 1 had 150 and early -2. Early 165 had the "light case". There is an
AD to look for cracks every 100 hours, there are still a few flying,
Later 165 had the "heavy case" look for the casting numbers if in doubt.
There are only twelve 108s in Australia. Also two pre-war (HW 75/model 10/
105) One is being rebuilt in Queensland. The other will rot away before the owner (who doesn't fly) will sell. Pity.
Bear in mind that for the 190 hp Lycoming it is more difficult to get parts than for the Franklin.
I know of only two Reliants in Australia.
On Fantome's chum's points:-
I'm certainly not a Yank, and most of my flying is from grass runways under 800m thanks very much!
780lb was the useable payload on our 108-2 - 1450lbf empty weight, 2230lb MTOW. I weighed it myself with calibrated 3 point aircraft scales. We still had a non-functioning auxilliary tank in the back and probably a bit more paint than it needed, but that was certainly not 320lbf worth. Anyhow, the OP turns out not to have a 108 anyhow.
Runway length experience was based upon practical use of (mostly) grass strips around the UK and Ireland - so roundabout ISA S/L, and was basically my comfort zone and not trying to prove anything. I'm sure that somebody with no sense of fear and a determination to prove a point could fly the type from far less. And yes, I did use flaps as god and the POH intended.
Every pilot I checked out on it, had a tendency to inadvertently pull back on the yoke and bleed speed off when correctly trimmed, until this was beaten soundly out of them. I suspect I did the same my first 15ish hours on type as well. It's correctable and seems to be a function of climb attitude, seat angle, and yoke ergonomics.
The apparence of some mainwheel braking at full rudder deflection was normal, and I thought I'd seen that in the maintenance manual somewhere, although could be wrong as I can't see it in the POH I have to hand.
I think that in retrospect Fantome's chum is absolutely right about needing people with Franklin experience to look after a Franklin. Unfortunately, there is nobody in Britain with significant Franklin experience.
G
I'm certainly not a Yank, and most of my flying is from grass runways under 800m thanks very much!
780lb was the useable payload on our 108-2 - 1450lbf empty weight, 2230lb MTOW. I weighed it myself with calibrated 3 point aircraft scales. We still had a non-functioning auxilliary tank in the back and probably a bit more paint than it needed, but that was certainly not 320lbf worth. Anyhow, the OP turns out not to have a 108 anyhow.
Runway length experience was based upon practical use of (mostly) grass strips around the UK and Ireland - so roundabout ISA S/L, and was basically my comfort zone and not trying to prove anything. I'm sure that somebody with no sense of fear and a determination to prove a point could fly the type from far less. And yes, I did use flaps as god and the POH intended.
Every pilot I checked out on it, had a tendency to inadvertently pull back on the yoke and bleed speed off when correctly trimmed, until this was beaten soundly out of them. I suspect I did the same my first 15ish hours on type as well. It's correctable and seems to be a function of climb attitude, seat angle, and yoke ergonomics.
The apparence of some mainwheel braking at full rudder deflection was normal, and I thought I'd seen that in the maintenance manual somewhere, although could be wrong as I can't see it in the POH I have to hand.
I think that in retrospect Fantome's chum is absolutely right about needing people with Franklin experience to look after a Franklin. Unfortunately, there is nobody in Britain with significant Franklin experience.
G
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HJ, in case you don't already know, and IIRC ... within the last few years Pilot magazine published an article about a Stinson HW-75 - one of only two examples in the UK, and I suspect you may be looking at the other one! I had a quick look in my archive of magazines in the loft, but failed to track down the relevant issue. No doubt the magazine staff can identify and supply a copy.
Just in case the pre-war names are confusing see this link:
Stinson Voyager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stinson 105 is the original name, the variations in pre-war naming tend to be related to engine type, and many of them have been re-engined since manufacture.
Re Franklins - they like non-alcohol auto fuel, and do not like as much lead as 100LL contains.
Re interior room, as I posted previously, the 108 cabin is a bit small relative to the large size of the airframe, and is particularly tight in the rear seats. However its not typically a constraint, just a bit surprising when comparing outside versus inside. Pilot seating is fine for most people. I am BTW, particularly happy to be a naturalized "Yank", and also have a remarkably low BMI
Stinson Voyager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stinson 105 is the original name, the variations in pre-war naming tend to be related to engine type, and many of them have been re-engined since manufacture.
Re Franklins - they like non-alcohol auto fuel, and do not like as much lead as 100LL contains.
Re interior room, as I posted previously, the 108 cabin is a bit small relative to the large size of the airframe, and is particularly tight in the rear seats. However its not typically a constraint, just a bit surprising when comparing outside versus inside. Pilot seating is fine for most people. I am BTW, particularly happy to be a naturalized "Yank", and also have a remarkably low BMI
