Stepping down gracefully....
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Stepping down gracefully....
Pasted up on the loo doors in the gliding club, and in a lot of other places, the mantra I'M SAFE! The guide to help you decide, are you FIT TO FLY today?
I for Illness, M for Medication, S for Stress, A for Alcohol, F for Fatigue, E....don't remember what E stands for.
All worthy considerations. But how do you decide when the time comes to step down gracefully from flying due to AGE and the inevitable decline in sharpness that comes with old age? Or do you just wait until the medics give you the chop?
There are two kinds of pilots, Bold Pilots and Old Pilots, they say. But there are also two kinds of Old Pilots. If you have been flying for years and years and years, your accumulated experience and good sense would imply you can still cut the mustard. BUT those who start flying in their fifties or sixties, able to buy a fancy Cirrus with its get out of trouble rocket chute, are less likely to cope when the weather turns uncomfortable, or the magenta line goes on the blink....
Having the good sense to say no, to quit when you are still ahead, could you do that?
I for Illness, M for Medication, S for Stress, A for Alcohol, F for Fatigue, E....don't remember what E stands for.
All worthy considerations. But how do you decide when the time comes to step down gracefully from flying due to AGE and the inevitable decline in sharpness that comes with old age? Or do you just wait until the medics give you the chop?
There are two kinds of pilots, Bold Pilots and Old Pilots, they say. But there are also two kinds of Old Pilots. If you have been flying for years and years and years, your accumulated experience and good sense would imply you can still cut the mustard. BUT those who start flying in their fifties or sixties, able to buy a fancy Cirrus with its get out of trouble rocket chute, are less likely to cope when the weather turns uncomfortable, or the magenta line goes on the blink....
Having the good sense to say no, to quit when you are still ahead, could you do that?
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Forgive me for this being only my second post, but I have been a regular reader of this and other GA forums for some time as I intend to commence taking flying lessons in 2014. I must take issue with the apparent stated premise that people over a certain age (whatever that may be) should not consider taking up GA piloting as a hobby. What evidence is there to support this suggestion? The reason I feel obliged to make these comments as my first input to the forum is personal. At 75 years of age, I have read and absorbed all the books necessary for the PPL exams, am mentally fit, and following the medical, my physical condition and responses are 100%. Bear in mind that far more car accidents are caused by the under 25s than over 65s. Age is nothing more than a number; attitude and ability are more important.
Happy 2014
John (Psychologist Rtd)
Happy 2014
John (Psychologist Rtd)
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I stopped flying nearly four years ago. The increasing costs meant that I was flying less and less, and I no longer felt that I was properly current.
So when I got to the last entry on the last page of my log book I decided it was as good a time as any to stop.
I achieved far more than I ever imagined when I learnt in the late 90s, including a fair bit of formation flying and some aerobatics.
My day job is Air/Ground Radio at a busy GA airfield with a challenging mix of aircraft from microlights to ex-military fast jets, Cessnas to biz jets, with a few Merlin-powered warbirds too.
On a busy day, when we have to deal with several hundred movements, it is immensely satisfying to get everyone up and down safely. So I have no regrets, and am pleased that others are still able to enjoy aviating in its many facets.
RD
So when I got to the last entry on the last page of my log book I decided it was as good a time as any to stop.
I achieved far more than I ever imagined when I learnt in the late 90s, including a fair bit of formation flying and some aerobatics.
My day job is Air/Ground Radio at a busy GA airfield with a challenging mix of aircraft from microlights to ex-military fast jets, Cessnas to biz jets, with a few Merlin-powered warbirds too.
On a busy day, when we have to deal with several hundred movements, it is immensely satisfying to get everyone up and down safely. So I have no regrets, and am pleased that others are still able to enjoy aviating in its many facets.
RD
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I must take issue with the apparent stated premise that people over a certain age (whatever that may be) should not consider taking up GA piloting as a hobby. What evidence is there to support this suggestion?
The number of AAIB reports of elderly pilots pranging their aeroplanes on take off or landing, where there are no external factors, nor mechanical failure.
Insurance companies who refuse to insure > age 75, or impose special conditions, which is obviously a consequence of historical analysis and risk assessment.
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Originally Posted by Jon-D
At 75 years of age, I have read and absorbed all the books necessary for the PPL exams, am mentally fit, and following the medical, my physical condition and responses are 100%.
What exactly do you mean by 100% physical condition? Surely you are not suggesting you are as you were at 25? If you mean 100% of what can be expected for 75 years of age that is a very different thing. Please do not undertake your PPL believing you have not deteriorated over the years.
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What was the question again !
The only time I have ever come across the suggestion that there is a 'sell-by' date after which you constitute a liability as a student/pilot, was in a book by Derek Piggott. I thought it was simplistic nonsense then, and I still do now.
The physiological requirements are simple enough to assess in terms of health, strength, articulation, motor skills and visual acuity; I think we all know that you don't have to be an Olympic athlete to be a pilot!
So that leaves the psychological issues of memory, situational interpretation and workload capacity. How you fare in both areas is down to a) the genetic lottery and b) lifestyle. By way of example, I have known people who are as sharp as a pin in their 90's and others in their 60's who don't know the day of the week.
In fact you could argue that the 'older student' population is self-selecting in any case. This is because all students need the motivation and learning ability to slog through the exams and the dedication to consolidate the muscle-memory for the practical aspect of physically flying the aircraft.
So let us please move away from the idea that ability is inversely proportional to chronological age. Time undoubtedly takes its toll, but as adults the vast majority will know when it is time to quit. Indeed, I have a lot of respect for those who have the maturity to do so.
The physiological requirements are simple enough to assess in terms of health, strength, articulation, motor skills and visual acuity; I think we all know that you don't have to be an Olympic athlete to be a pilot!
So that leaves the psychological issues of memory, situational interpretation and workload capacity. How you fare in both areas is down to a) the genetic lottery and b) lifestyle. By way of example, I have known people who are as sharp as a pin in their 90's and others in their 60's who don't know the day of the week.
In fact you could argue that the 'older student' population is self-selecting in any case. This is because all students need the motivation and learning ability to slog through the exams and the dedication to consolidate the muscle-memory for the practical aspect of physically flying the aircraft.
So let us please move away from the idea that ability is inversely proportional to chronological age. Time undoubtedly takes its toll, but as adults the vast majority will know when it is time to quit. Indeed, I have a lot of respect for those who have the maturity to do so.
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Like a lot of us on these forums I earn my living flying and also fly as a hobby. I usually fly between 300-550hours per year for work, another 100-150 for fun and am reasonably current.
I have, however noticed a marked difference in instrument scan and memory ability between the ages of 40 and 50. That may be because between age 30 and age 40 I was flying 800 hours per year for work and was therefore far more current, it may just be down to age, but certainly asking the question in the crew room a lot of pilots notice their skills slipping as middle age moves on, their knowledge will usually keep them from areas where they really need all their skills, but I don't believe anyone can be as good mentally at sixty as they were at thirty. I'm kind of relieved that I have to stop professional flying at sixty.
SND
I have, however noticed a marked difference in instrument scan and memory ability between the ages of 40 and 50. That may be because between age 30 and age 40 I was flying 800 hours per year for work and was therefore far more current, it may just be down to age, but certainly asking the question in the crew room a lot of pilots notice their skills slipping as middle age moves on, their knowledge will usually keep them from areas where they really need all their skills, but I don't believe anyone can be as good mentally at sixty as they were at thirty. I'm kind of relieved that I have to stop professional flying at sixty.
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SND
With government talking about an ever increasing pension age, better health and longevity and the rights of people to carry on in their careers for much longer probably to 70 why should pilots be sidelined at 60?
If you pass your medical there should not be an age restriction as apart from discrimination against one group in society I really wonder whether there is evidence that older pilots are more accident prone.
As an example I am close to that age
recently did a car driving competition on a race track in a Porshe GT3. i felt like the grandfather with 25 others in the competition which was electronically timed with an instructor alongside.
the other 25 mostly comprised of people in their 25s to 35s with a handful in their 40s.
Guess who won with a considerable lap time margin over the second placed guy?
Ok I used to race cars but can still put in equal times to the instructors.
i do not say this as a brag but to make a point!
you may argue that I have experience competitively racing cars but thats just the point I am making!
Pace
With government talking about an ever increasing pension age, better health and longevity and the rights of people to carry on in their careers for much longer probably to 70 why should pilots be sidelined at 60?
If you pass your medical there should not be an age restriction as apart from discrimination against one group in society I really wonder whether there is evidence that older pilots are more accident prone.
As an example I am close to that age
recently did a car driving competition on a race track in a Porshe GT3. i felt like the grandfather with 25 others in the competition which was electronically timed with an instructor alongside.the other 25 mostly comprised of people in their 25s to 35s with a handful in their 40s.
Guess who won with a considerable lap time margin over the second placed guy?
Ok I used to race cars but can still put in equal times to the instructors.
i do not say this as a brag but to make a point!
you may argue that I have experience competitively racing cars but thats just the point I am making!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 15th Jan 2014 at 12:15.
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People age at very, very, very different rates....
When I became a helicopter instructor in my early 50s, people told me it was a young person's job, especially on such demanding, responsive machines as the R22 helicopter. I had absolutely no idea what they meant. My stamina, reaction speed, memory etc seemed to be the same as they had been in my 20s. I loved the long hours airborne on good weather days, and would happily have flown 7 days a week.
By a few years later, I still loved it, could still do it effectively, but used to get home utterly exhausted. I looked forward to days off, and the day I woke up on a bad weather day and thought, "Thank God I don't have to fly today" was the day I realised something had changed.
By the time a combination of the recession, flying school closing, and some minor medical issues meant I had to take a break from instructing, I was relieved. I was as sharp as ever most of the time, but.... Something wasn't the same. What was it? Was I missing little things, taking longer to react? I wasn't sure, but I didn't feel 100% safe any more. There were some tiny warning signals in my brain. And.....I just don't seem to have got around to renewing my instructor rating, and I don't think I want to. I blame it on no job and no money, but they aren't the only reasons, if I'm honest with myself.
Of course, instructing is very different from flying as a PPL, and helicopters are more demanding than f/w aircraft, particularly when something goes wrong. And this might have happened to me in my 60s, 70s, 90s...who knows? I only know that whereas 10 years ago I would have said that age made no difference, and been outraged at the suggestion that it did, I know now from experience that it does. For me. For now. For the rest of you? I'm not arrogant enough to know, or even to suggest, or to lay down any kind of law or particular age for stopping. But I do think Mary has raised an important issue here.
When I became a helicopter instructor in my early 50s, people told me it was a young person's job, especially on such demanding, responsive machines as the R22 helicopter. I had absolutely no idea what they meant. My stamina, reaction speed, memory etc seemed to be the same as they had been in my 20s. I loved the long hours airborne on good weather days, and would happily have flown 7 days a week.
By a few years later, I still loved it, could still do it effectively, but used to get home utterly exhausted. I looked forward to days off, and the day I woke up on a bad weather day and thought, "Thank God I don't have to fly today" was the day I realised something had changed.
By the time a combination of the recession, flying school closing, and some minor medical issues meant I had to take a break from instructing, I was relieved. I was as sharp as ever most of the time, but.... Something wasn't the same. What was it? Was I missing little things, taking longer to react? I wasn't sure, but I didn't feel 100% safe any more. There were some tiny warning signals in my brain. And.....I just don't seem to have got around to renewing my instructor rating, and I don't think I want to. I blame it on no job and no money, but they aren't the only reasons, if I'm honest with myself.
Of course, instructing is very different from flying as a PPL, and helicopters are more demanding than f/w aircraft, particularly when something goes wrong. And this might have happened to me in my 60s, 70s, 90s...who knows? I only know that whereas 10 years ago I would have said that age made no difference, and been outraged at the suggestion that it did, I know now from experience that it does. For me. For now. For the rest of you? I'm not arrogant enough to know, or even to suggest, or to lay down any kind of law or particular age for stopping. But I do think Mary has raised an important issue here.
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Whirlybird
I take in fully what you are saying and equally know that while i am OK now who knows what lies ahead or how quickly in autumn years you can go down hill, but it still raises political points with the fact that the government keeps moving the pension gold post further ahead.
They use the excuse that people are living longer, that they are healthier, the new 60s are the old 50s etc.
it is hard on our industry to be shoved out at 60 while everyone else will be told to carry on until 70.
I am sure those of us who hold type ratings will be told on renewals if we are slowing up or not cutting it in the sim.
as for memory I could never remember names when I was 20 so no change there
One thing I am sure of is if you think OLD you will be OLD far before your time
Pace
I take in fully what you are saying and equally know that while i am OK now who knows what lies ahead or how quickly in autumn years you can go down hill, but it still raises political points with the fact that the government keeps moving the pension gold post further ahead.
They use the excuse that people are living longer, that they are healthier, the new 60s are the old 50s etc.
it is hard on our industry to be shoved out at 60 while everyone else will be told to carry on until 70.
I am sure those of us who hold type ratings will be told on renewals if we are slowing up or not cutting it in the sim.
as for memory I could never remember names when I was 20 so no change there
One thing I am sure of is if you think OLD you will be OLD far before your time
Pace
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Pace,
Is repeating yourself a sign of growing older, do you think?
Think old? A whole separate issue. Our society is somewhat obsessed with chonological age, don't you think? "Old" is a taboo word. If you say you're old, people fall over backwards to tell you it's not true. Why? What on earth does it matter? What do I call myself in my 60s - young? Why has a simple descriptive word acquired all these negative connotations?
The political issues - ah, that's a whole separate thing, and I don't feel inclined to get into it right now, though you are of course correct with respect to the government and pension goalposts. Living longer and healthier does not mean being the same as a far younger person.... or not for everyone, anyway.
Is repeating yourself a sign of growing older, do you think?
Think old? A whole separate issue. Our society is somewhat obsessed with chonological age, don't you think? "Old" is a taboo word. If you say you're old, people fall over backwards to tell you it's not true. Why? What on earth does it matter? What do I call myself in my 60s - young? Why has a simple descriptive word acquired all these negative connotations?
The political issues - ah, that's a whole separate thing, and I don't feel inclined to get into it right now, though you are of course correct with respect to the government and pension goalposts. Living longer and healthier does not mean being the same as a far younger person.... or not for everyone, anyway.
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I don't think you can generalise easily. I started to learn to fly aged 52. Took an IMCR in 15 hours 2 years later and did my IR aged 62. I still fly a TB20 IFR in the airways aged 66 and don't find it difficult. I will agree that I'm not as current on hand flying as I probably should be, but if I'm in doubt I go flying with an instructor to sharpen things up.
I plan carefully and I always strive to keep ahead of the aeroplane, so far so good, but not complacent
I plan carefully and I always strive to keep ahead of the aeroplane, so far so good, but not complacent
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Is repeating yourself a sign of growing older, do you think?
the two traits I had when I was 20 were repeating my self and never remembering names so nothing changed Repeating myself again when I do a sim and the examiner says " old boy your not up to speed " then I will say Cheerio
Pace
My oldest PPL student was 72. I considered him one of my best students. There was no question that he took longer to learn the hands and feet part of the training but that was more than made up by his maturity, lack of ego and his enthusiasm.
He wanted to learn to fly for his whole life and had finally arrived at the time in his life when he had the time and financial resources to start training.
After he got his license he continued to fly regularly for 5 years. At that point he decided to hang up his spurs due to deteriorating vision. He could just barely pass the vision part of the medical but he no longer felt he was safe to fly.
He wanted to learn to fly for his whole life and had finally arrived at the time in his life when he had the time and financial resources to start training.
After he got his license he continued to fly regularly for 5 years. At that point he decided to hang up his spurs due to deteriorating vision. He could just barely pass the vision part of the medical but he no longer felt he was safe to fly.
it was the heart what did it for me. Made a very good recovery from a heart attack, no change in anything except my flying. I heard it would have been possible to get my medical back after a year without death - but the hoops I would have had to jump through to satisfy those nice CAA medics would have killed me. I could have gone from PPL to NPPL, doctor perfectly happy to sign the form. But at 70 and with lots of flying behind me I decided to hang up the electric hat. Must confess to being a bit grumpy when I hear someone enjoying themselves on a CAVOK day.
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At the age of 74 this discussion just makes me nervous. Why is age so important to everyone? I went to Sywell last August, camped for three days & flew home (267nm each way) in a wind of 35kn getting shot to bits over the Borders. Scud running, Pressonitis and all that crap that I'm supposed to have grown out of.
Was I just stupid for doing it, or should I be pleased I still can? And no I'm not bragging, I'd just like to be allowed to carry on till I decide. I hate this bloody ageism thing.
Was I just stupid for doing it, or should I be pleased I still can? And no I'm not bragging, I'd just like to be allowed to carry on till I decide. I hate this bloody ageism thing.
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Ageism? That's not what the OP intended. Ageism is when someone else says "you're too old to do that". This thread is about individuals saying "I'm not as sharp as I was / not enjoying it it like I did; time to stop".
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I have not posted here for a long time but still read the forum occasionally.
This subject has prompted me to give my thoughts on this subject so here goes.
First of all there is no across the board answer to the " to old to fly safely " question, it varies from person to person.
We do however have means by which to measure both physical health and also a pilots ability to physically handle an aircraft which is a flight test that is structured and judged by using a test sheet with quality of performance recorded for each maneuver or item.
The are just to many physiological issues involved in when one should quit that we each must examine our own mental attitude with regard to when we should quit.......in other words when doubt enters the equation that is the time to put everything on the table and examine what has changed.
My decision to retire from commercial aviation just happened by accident....I was getting my regular pilots license medical when the conversation got around to me telling the doctor that I was practicing for unlimited aerobatics contests........well it did not take long for the doctor to ask me what G loads I was pulling and when I told him he said not any more because you are getting to the age where your body just may not stand such treatment....
.........anyhow that was the moment I decided to retire because I made a deal with the doctor that I would tell the people I was flying for that I had to retire at the end of the airshow season.
It turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made because I finally found a new life at home where I could live like a normal human being and not have to live in hotels all over the planet.
For two years I never even thought of flying until a friend talked me into flying his company airplane and there I was back to " having " to fly at someone else s wishes...so after two years of that I told my friend that due to having no valid medical I could not fly for him anymore...I was telling the truth because I just did not get a medical which of course invalidated my license.
When I retired from commercial flying the first time I was 70 and the second time I was 76.
But it does not stop there.....I am 78 now and about to renew my pilot medical because I am about to start a new flight training program for young pilots who want to fly for a living.
So age wise I am quite confident that I am safe as I had a medical done on my own but not for Transport Canada and had every test that I could get done including an ultrasound when all the tests were finished all they could find was I was low on vitamin D ...and that is not really all that shocking as it was winter time and it was to cold to go out in the sun.
So to sum this up.
There is no one size fits all to determine at what age one should quit flying, what one must do is use common sense get real in depth physical exams and then determine if you really want to fly.
Chuck Ellsworth.
This subject has prompted me to give my thoughts on this subject so here goes.
First of all there is no across the board answer to the " to old to fly safely " question, it varies from person to person.
We do however have means by which to measure both physical health and also a pilots ability to physically handle an aircraft which is a flight test that is structured and judged by using a test sheet with quality of performance recorded for each maneuver or item.
The are just to many physiological issues involved in when one should quit that we each must examine our own mental attitude with regard to when we should quit.......in other words when doubt enters the equation that is the time to put everything on the table and examine what has changed.
My decision to retire from commercial aviation just happened by accident....I was getting my regular pilots license medical when the conversation got around to me telling the doctor that I was practicing for unlimited aerobatics contests........well it did not take long for the doctor to ask me what G loads I was pulling and when I told him he said not any more because you are getting to the age where your body just may not stand such treatment....
.........anyhow that was the moment I decided to retire because I made a deal with the doctor that I would tell the people I was flying for that I had to retire at the end of the airshow season.
It turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made because I finally found a new life at home where I could live like a normal human being and not have to live in hotels all over the planet.
For two years I never even thought of flying until a friend talked me into flying his company airplane and there I was back to " having " to fly at someone else s wishes...so after two years of that I told my friend that due to having no valid medical I could not fly for him anymore...I was telling the truth because I just did not get a medical which of course invalidated my license.
When I retired from commercial flying the first time I was 70 and the second time I was 76.
But it does not stop there.....I am 78 now and about to renew my pilot medical because I am about to start a new flight training program for young pilots who want to fly for a living.
So age wise I am quite confident that I am safe as I had a medical done on my own but not for Transport Canada and had every test that I could get done including an ultrasound when all the tests were finished all they could find was I was low on vitamin D ...and that is not really all that shocking as it was winter time and it was to cold to go out in the sun.
So to sum this up.
There is no one size fits all to determine at what age one should quit flying, what one must do is use common sense get real in depth physical exams and then determine if you really want to fly.
Chuck Ellsworth.
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Ok one last shot at the get old quickly brigade
Two examples
Last year the world champion base jumper was a man of 62 yrs of age beating young guys of 25 30 etc!
I had a lovely old friend a pilot who loved flying and had an amazing passion for flying!
He would call me very day with this idea or that idea! always full of life with a twinkle in his eye.
the last two years of his life he carried out 30 trans Atlantic ferries on his own ferrying stuff no one else wanted to ferry!
He had far more guts than I ever had often ferrying knackered singles from the USA to parts of Europe and beyond.
I told him on many occasions that on one of these trips he would not return!
his reply was that he loved what he did and did what he loved and if he did not return so be it!
Sadly he died in Canada ferrying a 172 in terrible weather mid winter and iced up.
He died not because of his age but because of his character. he had such an infectious enthusiasm and had such a good philosophy in life, was a huge support through my divorce that i really miss the daily chats I had with him and the support that was always there.
IF YOU WANT TO GROW OLD YOU WILL GROWN OLD WHETHER YOU ARE 50 60 70 or in My friends case he was still young at heart at 78
Pace
brigade Two examples
Last year the world champion base jumper was a man of 62 yrs of age beating young guys of 25 30 etc!
I had a lovely old friend a pilot who loved flying and had an amazing passion for flying!
He would call me very day with this idea or that idea! always full of life with a twinkle in his eye.
the last two years of his life he carried out 30 trans Atlantic ferries on his own ferrying stuff no one else wanted to ferry!
He had far more guts than I ever had often ferrying knackered singles from the USA to parts of Europe and beyond.
I told him on many occasions that on one of these trips he would not return!
his reply was that he loved what he did and did what he loved and if he did not return so be it!
Sadly he died in Canada ferrying a 172 in terrible weather mid winter and iced up.
He died not because of his age but because of his character. he had such an infectious enthusiasm and had such a good philosophy in life, was a huge support through my divorce that i really miss the daily chats I had with him and the support that was always there.
IF YOU WANT TO GROW OLD YOU WILL GROWN OLD WHETHER YOU ARE 50 60 70 or in My friends case he was still young at heart at 78
Pace