Trial flight- what to expect?

[PURPLE PITOT]

Perhaps i misread MJ's earlier post. It would be very helpful if Rwy could confirm which country the flight took place in, then we can stop speculating as to the legality.

[Pace]

This flight was conducted in greece. It would appear that there are no greek instructors available on here to fill in the blanks.

It would appear that there are NO Greek instructors available to fly his coupon flight either

pace

[Rwy in Sight]

Pace and al respected contributors of this thread.

First of all airpolice yes I did enjoy it very very much. I already ran the numbers for the PPL cost of acquiring and how much it costs to fly after that.

Now I thought, I was clear but maybe "coupon" could make understanding difficult. Around Xmas an ex sent me a mail about buying a coupon,for Z Euros, from company "C" for a thirty minute flight to be provided by a local air club. Once I paid company "C", I was sent a voucher to present to the local air club to fly on their aircraft with a pilot provided by them. It was mentioned (on the offer and on the coupon) I could either do a few touch and goes or a sightseeing flight and I could take up to 2 friends with me. Company "C" sells coupons entitling purchasers to acquire product and services - very often at greatly reduced prices - a woman's haircut from 50 Euros to 20.
When I presented the coupon to the air club, I was sent an application to become a member of the club which I completed. What I see as an issue here is how the money I paid is registered on the club's book. Obviously I don't know that so I don't want to speculate. It seems a PPL holder can fly either from left or right hand seat so the PPL holder is sitting on the right seat and the purchaser of the coupon on the left (his/her guests at the back). FWIW now I am a member of the club.

I definitely spend some time reading how the British CAA is saying about cost sharing.

Rwy in Sight

[airpolice]

Rwy, I say again, in which country did the flight take place?

[Pace]

RWY

I am sorry but what you have been sold is totally illegal. A PPL cannot fly you on a Coupon sold as a flight neither can he take the right or left seat especially with you in the left. The guy is not qualified to do so!

As AirPolice has said what country was this in if you are not prepared to identify the club?

you may have enjoyed the flight as you probably would if you paid a PPL to fly you to Spain but that does not make it legal or insured if something happened to you or your loved ones on that flight!

and I ask again why no licensed instructor was available to do this flight with you?

Pace

[Rwy in Sight]

airpolice

As some one said before, Greece. Behaving like a politician I did not deny it, I did not confirm it. No I am not one.

How would be different if I had walked in the club (regardless if I am a member or not), give some money to a PPL holder, going out to fly and ask him to allow to fly with him/her?

Rwy in Sight

[Pace]

RWY

If Greece then I am afraid you have been sold something totally illegal and were not insured for that flight.
The Greeks do not have money so am I surprised ?

The problem is many other people will unknowingly be sold these coupons with maybe not so happy an outcome?

How would be different if I had walked in the club (regardless if I am a member or not), give some money to a PPL holder, going out to fly and ask him to allow to fly with him/her?

Because that would not involve an unknowing member of the public buying in good faith a coupon for a flight which is a commercial transaction and expecting a quality of pilot who is insured to fly them as well as that commercial operation having oversight from the countries aviation authority.

with a PPL you may get a good pilot but not trained to a standard expected for commercial operations or you could have got a bad one with little experience.
If a friend who is a pilot you know offers to take you up with him with a contribution to his costs thats your risk and at least you are insured.

this way the insurance would be void so other than suing the individual for your hospital stay or life in a wheel chair your mostly on your own.

Pace

[RTN11]

How would be different if I had walked in the club (regardless if I am a member or not), give some money to a PPL holder, going out to fly and ask him to allow to fly with him/her?

It wouldn't be different, that would be illegal too.

For it to be legal, the PPL can only accept an equal share of the cost of the flight, so if there are two of you on board he can only ask you to pay 50% of the cost, if there are four on board then he can ask for 75%, but he must still pay his equal share relative to the number of people on board.

And for it to be an advertised flight would also make it illegal, this cost sharing rule is designed for people the PPL knows, rather than to advertise for custom to help him build cheap hours.

[airpolice]

Rwy, the difference, in the UK at least, is that if you gave the PPL holder no more than half the cost of the flight, it would be legal, for you to be a passenger. As for the Trial Flight aspect, that's a different can of worms.

Instructing without a licence, or just letting a mate have a wee clutch at the controls?

I sooooo wish the CAA would clarify this.

[PURPLE PITOT]

It is all well and good us quoting UK/easa regulations, but this flight was conducted under current (not yet fully easa) Greek regs.

Is anybody here familiar with current Greek regs?

Still smells as fishy as crab bait to me, but not being familiar with their regulations, i am not qualified to comment.

[airpolice]

I thought that all Greek legislation was based on;

If you are a Greek national, then all's well that ends well.

If you are a foreigner, then if you have money you could buy you way out, otherwise you are going to jail.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Well there is that aspect!

[Pace]

maybe the insurance companies don't pay out regardless?

[Rwy in Sight]

Guys,

You are better at instructing and explaining things, law and notions that the post high school education in the country of beer and chocolate that I did attend.

In some random order:
Pace, I have a supplementary insurance cover in case I can't use the state health system. If I get injured in a car accident they pay for the treatment and that life in the wheel chair (a small allowance but they pay). However if I fly on a SEP even as a PPL holder the coverage is void. I would like to know (and I should have ask) what does the aircraft insurance covers regarding people on board.

Also, Greece finance's and Greek people money are quite a different stories still unfortunately. Too many people have money they shouldn't have the State does not get their fair share... Don't get me started on that.

RTN11, you hit the nail on the head by putting the advertising perspective on the thread. If I understand correctly it is ok to give a friend with a PPL my share of costs to fly with me around. And I can see the issues here. Advertising, not knowing the costs, paying a third party...

Airpolice, you were right about the time going very fast. Also the flight was offered as the coupon purchaser would seat on the left and manipulate the controls..I should admit that the when the email arrived, I saw it as an opportunity to get a feel what would it be to handle the controls of a SEP.

I wanted to consult the wisdom of PPRuNe and the local CAA before going ahead with my purchase but I ran out of time - before purchase period closed. I am inexcusable for the PPRuNe with all the time I spent here but to get the opinion of the CAA, I would have to drive to their HQ, submit a written request and wait a month to get an answer. I am thinking about the other people bought the same offer if they knew what they were getting into and how would they have react if they read this thread.

Anyway, I accomplished the flight without a problem, I learned a lesson and I lived to tell the tale. It seems PPRuNe has such a strong influence on my life that I was very concerned about the whole idea. And the discussion after it provided for a very interesting Saturday night. All of you kindly refrain from starting a philosophical question why I took this flight while I felt it was illegal and if I should have write off the money I bought against experience etc...

Rwy in Sight

[airpolice]

Enjoy the flying.

I think the most important bit is that you went ahead with it, and survived.

Now you know what it feels like, join a proper outfit, get a licence and do it as often as you can.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Rwy, you asked what the aircraft insurance would cover. The answer depends entirely upon whether your flight was conducted legally or illegally.

If the flight was legal, you would be covered for property damage and personal injury ( can't be more specific without seeing the policy document)

If the flight was illegal, it would cover nothing, it would be invalid.

We have not been able to determine which of the above applies, as there do not appear to be any Greek instructors/pro pilots on here to educate us on current Greek aviation law.

My "gut" feeling given the way the flight was sold and operated, is that it was probably illegal.

The advice regarding "cost sharing" you have received on here is specific to UK law. You need to check Greek regs before you try using it.

You tried it, you liked it, and you lived. Go find a reputable Greek training facility, with qualified instructors, and do it some more. Legally.

Best of luck.

[Rwy in Sight]

PURPLE PITOT,

Thanks for the answers regarding the insurance. I did not ask for the document but on the statement I signed there was a mention that I agree to be covered by the aircraft/club insurance and nothing more. I understand the insurance company would have searched very carefully the relation between pax and the club.

I just realised that my contract was with the club because on the voucher it clearly said: don't forget to ask the receipt. I did but I would ring them a request one.

airpolice and PURPLE PITOT, you make an excellent statement that it is good I enjoyed the experience and live to tell the tale. I understand that repeating the experience should be after careful planing.And obviously if I want to follow the path leading to a PPL I need to even more carefully consider my next moves. I feel everybody would agree that it is not worth paying for flights on SEP without building time for ones self.

Rwy in Sight

[foxmoth]

Everyone seems to be getting at the OP here.
Just to point out it was not the OP that was illegal, he just took the risk and got away with it, the person(s) operating illegally was the pilot and possibly the club and the person selling the voucher.

[Pace]

Defending the OP I was more bothered that he had spent a lot of money fraudulently taken from him when he could for the same money had a proper trial lesson! Yet this was under the guise of a flight experience token which is illegal and misrepresentation under the circumstances!

Lucky to get away with it maybe a bit heavy as he could have approached a PPL and begged a ride with a small financial gesture! He would equally have been at risk regarding harm to himself.

So we are really talking about illegality and lack of insurance not increased risk! Other than the higher training and skills required for a CPL.
So in that sense I was more bothered about the guy being ripped off to finance a PPLs hobby because that is all it can be to a PPL. The risk element is no different other than lack of insurance to a PPL taking family and friends up for a flight.

Pace

[Level Attitude]

So we are really talking about illegality

Are we? Not so sure.
EASA (when fully implemented) should produce the same
rules throughout Europe.
German Aero Clubs used to be able to offer "Air Experience" flights
and, I believe, still can:

Steve6443 5th May 2013
Here is a link to a letter from the German Transport Ministry where
they state their position with regards the new EU regulations, namely
that they believe the VO (EU) Nr. 1178/2011 would negatively impact
flying clubs significantly and they require this to be reviewed and, until
this is reviewed, they would allow flights for clubs at a cost basis plus
cost sharing flights for PPLs.

I do not know the current rules in Greece so the company offering an
"Air Experience Flight" voucher, and the club providing the flight, could
be fully above board.
The only difficulty being the OP wanting to change his "Air Experience flight"
to a "Trial Lesson"?