Flight Test & Engine out
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
Likes: 501
From: Canada
There were a couple of fatal very tragic accidents in PC12s where loss of control at altitude resulted in failure of the pilots to recover and I wonder whether this was partially due to too much emphasis on systems and the automatics and not enough on good old handling techniques
Pace
Pace
Not being so stupid as to fly directly into a level 4 CB would have prevented one accident and another accident that was the result of a massive fuel imbalance could have been resolved with even the most basic systems knowledge. Not flying over gross would also have helped
In other words these accidents were caused by an were egregious lack of airmanship and good pilot decision making. Spin training is not the way to fix these kinds of accidents.
When I teach stall/spin recognition and avoidance. I do it in 4 steps
1) Recognize and recover from the slow flight regime
2) If the slow flight regime is inadvertently entered then allowed to progress to the stall than recognize the incipient stall and recover before the break
3) If the aircraft is not recovered at an incipient stall than recognize and recover from a fully developed stall
4) If the aircraft is not only allowed to stall but also allowed to yaw after it stalls than recognize and recover from the incipient spin.
The best way to do the later is to explore climbing turn stalls. This is also a great way to reinforce the dangers of skids and what happens if the airplane is allowed to stall while in a skid.
The bottom line is simple. I want my students to develop the instinctive reaction of stick forward, full power, straight with the rudder anytime there is a danger of stalling. If that is applied it is impossible for the aircraft to spin.
If the student gets into a spin they have to be stupid times 3. They let the aircraft get into slow flight and did nothing, then they let the aircraft stall and did nothing, then they let the aircraft yaw after it stalled and did nothing. I find it hard to believe that after letting the situation so totally deteriorate they are suddenly going to snap to attention and apply the correct anti spin control.
Joined: Sep 2001
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 2,787
Likes: 208
From: Toronto
Pulling the tow release at say 100 feet with no landable area ahead, therefore requiring you to turn back to the runway would be a more apt comparison as to the risk entailed.
How many times have you done that ?
How many times have you done that ?
At low height:
- select least hostile terrain
- put it there at minimum speed
- call insurance company
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,831
Likes: 16
From: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Done it at 50' with a slow launch off the winch.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
Likes: 501
From: Canada
Like gliders the priority in a SEP is not to save the airplane it is to save the occupants of the airplane. I tell my students the instance the engine fails the insurance company just bought the airplane.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
BPF
Usually these things happen because the pilot is distracted or hits overload and basically cannot handle a situation which is out of his or the aircrafts limits.
Yes they do something stupid or act stupid.
If we look at the overload situation there was a great study carried out on overload!
One of the biggest defences against getting into overload is familiarity i.e. being so familiar and knowledgeable about ALL handling traits of the aircraft and its systems then very little brain power is needed to fly the aircraft! That releases a lot of mental power to deal with the situation which has lead to overload.
Ie your overload tolerance becomes higher.
secondly being familiar with ALL the handling traits in and out of the box will mean that the pilot will react instinctively and use less mental capacity in rectifying the situation.
An already stressed pilot faced with being in something like a spin who is not well trained and instinctive in recovery and identification of that spin or not even know if he is in a spin or spiral dive will be in unknown territory and hence in a high overload situation i.e. he is far far more likely to freeze at the controls or use incorrect recovery procedures.
The fact that he is only partially trained is itself a stress factor as then fear of the unknown comes into play! We had a thread started by such a student who was scared of stalls because his mind ran riot on what might happen if he messed up stall recovery on his own and got into unknown territory
The fully trained pilot is far more likely not to get into overload while the partially trained pilot will overload much quicker and more easily.
Teaching avoidance is only part of the training of that pilot and he is ill equipt to deal with things he is not trained in.
I would personally trim out some of the PPL requirements to make way for 3 hrs of aerobatic training with a suitable aerobatic aircraft and an aerobatic qualified instructor maybe just prior to the long cross countries
BPF btw I always read your posts with interest and take in your views with respect as I do with certain other posters here
Pace
If the student gets into a spin they have to be stupid times 3. They let the aircraft get into slow flight and did nothing, then they let the aircraft stall and did nothing, then they let the aircraft yaw after it stalled and did nothing. I find it hard to believe that after letting the situation so totally deteriorate they are suddenly going to snap to attention and apply the correct anti spin control.
Yes they do something stupid or act stupid.
If we look at the overload situation there was a great study carried out on overload!
One of the biggest defences against getting into overload is familiarity i.e. being so familiar and knowledgeable about ALL handling traits of the aircraft and its systems then very little brain power is needed to fly the aircraft! That releases a lot of mental power to deal with the situation which has lead to overload.
Ie your overload tolerance becomes higher.
secondly being familiar with ALL the handling traits in and out of the box will mean that the pilot will react instinctively and use less mental capacity in rectifying the situation.
An already stressed pilot faced with being in something like a spin who is not well trained and instinctive in recovery and identification of that spin or not even know if he is in a spin or spiral dive will be in unknown territory and hence in a high overload situation i.e. he is far far more likely to freeze at the controls or use incorrect recovery procedures.
The fact that he is only partially trained is itself a stress factor as then fear of the unknown comes into play! We had a thread started by such a student who was scared of stalls because his mind ran riot on what might happen if he messed up stall recovery on his own and got into unknown territory
The fully trained pilot is far more likely not to get into overload while the partially trained pilot will overload much quicker and more easily.
Teaching avoidance is only part of the training of that pilot and he is ill equipt to deal with things he is not trained in.
I would personally trim out some of the PPL requirements to make way for 3 hrs of aerobatic training with a suitable aerobatic aircraft and an aerobatic qualified instructor maybe just prior to the long cross countries
BPF btw I always read your posts with interest and take in your views with respect as I do with certain other posters here
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 11th January 2014 at 11:05.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
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From: overhere
Piper.Classique - Wow this sound amazing. I would love to fly a tail dragger when I can and hope to fly the Piper Pawnee tug plane at my gliding club when I have my PPL.
Last edited by sab444; 12th January 2014 at 06:19. Reason: add note
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: NE OK
Slow flight
Can't believe it has been 40 years since I got my ticket.
My instructor was a crop duster, and very thorough. He taught me slow flight, stalls, spins, accelerated stalls, approach stalls and many times, recovery [under the hood] from unusual attitude. Yes, he cut the engine on me - more than once - and a few other things I won't go into on a forum. I feel it made me more aware of the consequences of an engine failure, and more alert for even small issues. He taught me to feel the airplane, not to just work the controls.
BTW, I really enjoy spins...still enjoy snap rolls, too. Tom was an excellent instructor. Created a good friendship, as well. Amazing how trust will do that.
My instructor was a crop duster, and very thorough. He taught me slow flight, stalls, spins, accelerated stalls, approach stalls and many times, recovery [under the hood] from unusual attitude. Yes, he cut the engine on me - more than once - and a few other things I won't go into on a forum. I feel it made me more aware of the consequences of an engine failure, and more alert for even small issues. He taught me to feel the airplane, not to just work the controls.
BTW, I really enjoy spins...still enjoy snap rolls, too. Tom was an excellent instructor. Created a good friendship, as well. Amazing how trust will do that.
This is a video of my first solo flight in a single seat glider.Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,817
Likes: 1
From: Hotel Gypsy
Fantastic. It's been 30 years since I did any serious gliding. Without doubt it is the best way for youngsters to get involved in aviation. Not only does it teach great stick-n-rudder skills, it instills teamwork, confidence and airmanship. 
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Sab
Can i ask you how you got your interest in flying ? I used to fly with my son when he was 10 yrs old and despite me trying to persuade him into a more stable career he ignored his teachers advice and mine to go to University and was right seat in a 737 with EasyJet here in the UK at the age of 20. He is now just past his mid twenties and up for a Captain in the A320.
Was one of your parents into Aviation?
What do you hope to do? Keep aviation as a past time or are you intending to make a career flying?
Excuse me for being nosey
I usually am 
Pace
Can i ask you how you got your interest in flying ? I used to fly with my son when he was 10 yrs old and despite me trying to persuade him into a more stable career he ignored his teachers advice and mine to go to University and was right seat in a 737 with EasyJet here in the UK at the age of 20. He is now just past his mid twenties and up for a Captain in the A320.
Was one of your parents into Aviation?
What do you hope to do? Keep aviation as a past time or are you intending to make a career flying?
Excuse me for being nosey
I usually am Pace
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
From: Western USA
Pace
I used to fly with my son when he was 10 yrs old and despite me trying to persuade him into a more stable career he ignored his teachers advice and mine to go to University and was right seat in a 737 with EasyJet here in the UK at the age of 20. He is now just past his mid twenties and up for a Captain in the A320.
I used to fly with my son when he was 10 yrs old and despite me trying to persuade him into a more stable career he ignored his teachers advice and mine to go to University and was right seat in a 737 with EasyJet here in the UK at the age of 20. He is now just past his mid twenties and up for a Captain in the A320.
Edit: I just reached 411 posts. Reminds me how much I miss 411A's posts. RIP, Captain. Should have a cigar in his memory today.
