Ratio of male to female?
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(Whirlybird): She certainly hadn't got this from her parents, who were immensely proud of her. Nor from the ATC, who AFAIK predicted a great future for her. It must have been...school, friends, the media, society... Armchairflyer, I know it's only one anecdote, but do you still think it's not true that
the contemporary society and/or education system in Western countries tells girls that "they just cannot do it".
. Besides all considerations regarding the generalizability of anecdotes, "it's a boy thing" does not mean that girls are unable to do as well (or told so), just that there is not the same amount of widespread interest. Parents may admittedly play a role (as in Desert185's story), but actually your anecdote shows IMHO that school, friends, the media or society apparently did not represent any appreciable barriers against that girl's individual interest (backed by parental support).
Last edited by Armchairflyer; 21st Dec 2013 at 11:08. Reason: unnecessary quotation marks removed
The Original Whirly
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Pace,
I gather that medical school applicants are predominantly male these days; also law applicants (I think). So some things do change in that respect, which strongly suggests it's more social than biological.
Armchairflyer,
No, but the fact she mentioned it shows that she assumed it represented a barrier for most of her contemporaries, who weren't as unconventional/uncaring/ independent as she was. There have always been a few people who can go against cultural/social norms. If there weren't there would be NO female pilots. But there are never many who can do this. That was the whole point of my post! 
I gather that medical school applicants are predominantly male these days; also law applicants (I think). So some things do change in that respect, which strongly suggests it's more social than biological.
Armchairflyer,
actually your anecdote shows IMHO that school, friends, the media or society apparently did not represent any appreciable barriers against that girl's individual interest
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Whirlybird,
Maybe I missed something (or your description of the anecdote did), but IMHO the mere assertion "it's a boy thing" does not hint at any assumed barrier erected by society, school, the media etc. At least not more than at a simple lack of intrinsic interest as widespread as among boys. Did not sound to me as if she had answered to your question why so few girls are in the ATC that she knows several who would love to do it but are deterred by friends or teachers sneering at the thought or the negative media image of women in aviation.
Of course one could argue that girls aspire to being pilots/mechanics/firefighters/woodsmen (insert any job/activity which by the number of practitioners is "a boy thing") every bit as much as men, but the barriers erected by school, teachers, the media, society etc. are so subtle yet pervasive that they are simply no longer aware of their actual inclinations nor able to name these barriers, but I admittedly have issues with that approach on several levels (not just regarding gender).
If you have 40 minutes to spare (while curing your headache owing to a male seemingly not understanding your point?
)
Maybe I missed something (or your description of the anecdote did), but IMHO the mere assertion "it's a boy thing" does not hint at any assumed barrier erected by society, school, the media etc. At least not more than at a simple lack of intrinsic interest as widespread as among boys. Did not sound to me as if she had answered to your question why so few girls are in the ATC that she knows several who would love to do it but are deterred by friends or teachers sneering at the thought or the negative media image of women in aviation.
Of course one could argue that girls aspire to being pilots/mechanics/firefighters/woodsmen (insert any job/activity which by the number of practitioners is "a boy thing") every bit as much as men, but the barriers erected by school, teachers, the media, society etc. are so subtle yet pervasive that they are simply no longer aware of their actual inclinations nor able to name these barriers, but I admittedly have issues with that approach on several levels (not just regarding gender).
If you have 40 minutes to spare (while curing your headache owing to a male seemingly not understanding your point?
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Armchairflyer, thank you for that. Nothing on TV this evening, and I did have 40 minutes, so I just watched it all. Interesting stuff. Nothing totally proven, but a lot of food for thought. Interesting how neither side really wants to listen to the other....a bit like PPRuNe really.
I don't claim to know why men and women appear to have different interests, and it's made harder by the fact that I'm totally untypical - well, I would be, wouldn't I; I'm a female pilot!
Sorry if my anecdote wasn't as obvious as it seemed to me. I'll read it again and see if it's lost something in the telling or simply wasn't there in the first place....
I don't claim to know why men and women appear to have different interests, and it's made harder by the fact that I'm totally untypical - well, I would be, wouldn't I; I'm a female pilot!
Sorry if my anecdote wasn't as obvious as it seemed to me. I'll read it again and see if it's lost something in the telling or simply wasn't there in the first place....
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Whirlybird, I know, and one who masters those weird machines with wildly spinning airfoils, too. But I think in saying that you are totally untypical, you let society and the media get to you too much .
While we are at anecdotal evidence, if I may ask, did you perceive any actual "this is a boy thing" barriers during your career? (Single prejudiced macho morons don't count.)
.While we are at anecdotal evidence, if I may ask, did you perceive any actual "this is a boy thing" barriers during your career? (Single prejudiced macho morons don't count.)
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Armchairflyer, I'm not totally untypical; that was written in a hurry and is wrong. I'm probably only untypical in that I don't seem to pick up on socially accepted norms, the "done thing" etc. This is a personality trait which is probably present in a fairly standard percentage of people....more about that later, in another post...
"It's a boy thing" barriers when I was training? Not barriers as such, simply....surprise. When I said at my helicopter school that I wanted to do a CPL with a view to instructing, everyone seemed dumbfounded, and I don't exaggerate. I thought it was because I'd never mentioned it before, but quite a lot of students decided during training to carry on and go commercial. Then I thought it was my age - I was in my 40s - but that wasn't so uncommon either. It seemed to be because I was female. Then there was the reaction of the general public when I was instructing; most seemed to think I was the tea lady when they got to the helicopter school, pilot's shirt and tie notwithstanding. One trial lesson student even said to me: "This might sound silly, but I didn't realise women became helicopter pilots". I still get told: "You don't look like a helicopter pilot" and when I ask what one looks like, the answer - often unstated as people get embarrassed at that point - is clearly "male, for a start".
The "it's a boy thing" seems to be deeply ingrained in people. Is it biological or social? I assumed it was social, as I couldn't see how such a thing could be biological. Hence I may even have misunderstood the conversation with my 17 year old friend, though knowing the context I don't think so. I certainly didn't explain it well to you. But after watching your fascinating clip, I'm not so sure. However, I don't think they've proved anything yet, and I want to comment on that film, having thought about it. But I think I'll do so in a separate post....
"It's a boy thing" barriers when I was training? Not barriers as such, simply....surprise. When I said at my helicopter school that I wanted to do a CPL with a view to instructing, everyone seemed dumbfounded, and I don't exaggerate. I thought it was because I'd never mentioned it before, but quite a lot of students decided during training to carry on and go commercial. Then I thought it was my age - I was in my 40s - but that wasn't so uncommon either. It seemed to be because I was female. Then there was the reaction of the general public when I was instructing; most seemed to think I was the tea lady when they got to the helicopter school, pilot's shirt and tie notwithstanding. One trial lesson student even said to me: "This might sound silly, but I didn't realise women became helicopter pilots". I still get told: "You don't look like a helicopter pilot" and when I ask what one looks like, the answer - often unstated as people get embarrassed at that point - is clearly "male, for a start".
The "it's a boy thing" seems to be deeply ingrained in people. Is it biological or social? I assumed it was social, as I couldn't see how such a thing could be biological. Hence I may even have misunderstood the conversation with my 17 year old friend, though knowing the context I don't think so. I certainly didn't explain it well to you. But after watching your fascinating clip, I'm not so sure. However, I don't think they've proved anything yet, and I want to comment on that film, having thought about it. But I think I'll do so in a separate post....
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Comments on "The Gender Equality Paradox"
If you're interested in why there are so few women pilots, you could do worse than watch the clip in Armchairflyer's post above. For those who don't have nearly 40 minutes to spare, I'll try to summarise it....
Norwegian researchers claim that inclinations towards certain careers, which are found consistently and worldwide, are due to social factors and early conditioning. Although some people have even found that very young children play with different toys, they claim that this conditioning happens very early, and cite experiments where people treated babies differently depending on whether they were dressed in pink or blue.
However, researchers in the USA and UK have done experiments on babies. One has found that levels of testosterone (in the womb or in babyhood; I can't remember which) affect the toys children want to play with, high levels relating to traditional "boys' toys". The apparent best evidence for the "biological" argument comes from a researcher who looked at one day old babies, and found that girls looked at faces for longer, boys at "things" (I can't remember what exactly they were"). From this they deduce that girls are more interested in people, boys in things, and that this translates to career choices in later life. Another researcher explained how this preference might have evolutionary advantages...."girly" girls making good mothers etc etc.
Armchairflyer, please correct me if any of this seems wrong; I didn't take notes and am summarising. As I said originally, it's interesting and food for thought. BUT....
1) I'd like to see details of how the experiment with one day old babies was done. For it to be valid, the experimenter needs to be ignorant of whether the baby is male or female, or the infant could possibly be reacting to non-verbal cues given off by the experimenter. Was this done?
2) I'm a psychology graduate, and I did a year of developmental psychology, but it was many, many years ago. Things may have changed and new discoveries been made, but as far as I recall, babies of one day old can't recognise faces or know what they are. You would need to postulate an innate attraction to faces in female babies, and...why?
3) Following on from this, I can't quite see how face/thing preferences or toy preferences relate to career choices, where the distinctions we're making in this area are pretty arbitrary. For instance, some people learn to fly because they want to travel, be like birds or similar. Instructing is people orientated. So are firefighting and police work. We used to say that men became lawyers and doctors, but these are also both people orientated professions. Women not liking dirty jobs? You can't get a lot dirtier than nurses cleaning up after incontinent old folk. I believe a lot of lab technicians are female, and that's "thing" orientated and technical. There are many more of these....
4) The evolutionary argument is a little vague, and sounded to me like trying to fit the facts to a plausible theory. Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
5) OTOH, the biological argument would explain why the 6% of female pilots is so constant over time and place. BUT...there is another possibility here. Some people - and I suspect it's a measurable percentage - don't respond well to social conditioning. Maybe that percentage are the ones who buck the "boy thing" norm (or whatever) and become pilots (or whatever). that could explain the consistent percentage. At present that seems to me more plausible. But I could be wrong, and I'd love to see more research being done on this, and if I was younger and had stayed in the field instead of learning to fly, maybe I'd do it.....
Sorry to have probably bored most of you with this long post, and bye for now.
Norwegian researchers claim that inclinations towards certain careers, which are found consistently and worldwide, are due to social factors and early conditioning. Although some people have even found that very young children play with different toys, they claim that this conditioning happens very early, and cite experiments where people treated babies differently depending on whether they were dressed in pink or blue.
However, researchers in the USA and UK have done experiments on babies. One has found that levels of testosterone (in the womb or in babyhood; I can't remember which) affect the toys children want to play with, high levels relating to traditional "boys' toys". The apparent best evidence for the "biological" argument comes from a researcher who looked at one day old babies, and found that girls looked at faces for longer, boys at "things" (I can't remember what exactly they were"). From this they deduce that girls are more interested in people, boys in things, and that this translates to career choices in later life. Another researcher explained how this preference might have evolutionary advantages...."girly" girls making good mothers etc etc.
Armchairflyer, please correct me if any of this seems wrong; I didn't take notes and am summarising. As I said originally, it's interesting and food for thought. BUT....
1) I'd like to see details of how the experiment with one day old babies was done. For it to be valid, the experimenter needs to be ignorant of whether the baby is male or female, or the infant could possibly be reacting to non-verbal cues given off by the experimenter. Was this done?
2) I'm a psychology graduate, and I did a year of developmental psychology, but it was many, many years ago. Things may have changed and new discoveries been made, but as far as I recall, babies of one day old can't recognise faces or know what they are. You would need to postulate an innate attraction to faces in female babies, and...why?
3) Following on from this, I can't quite see how face/thing preferences or toy preferences relate to career choices, where the distinctions we're making in this area are pretty arbitrary. For instance, some people learn to fly because they want to travel, be like birds or similar. Instructing is people orientated. So are firefighting and police work. We used to say that men became lawyers and doctors, but these are also both people orientated professions. Women not liking dirty jobs? You can't get a lot dirtier than nurses cleaning up after incontinent old folk. I believe a lot of lab technicians are female, and that's "thing" orientated and technical. There are many more of these....
4) The evolutionary argument is a little vague, and sounded to me like trying to fit the facts to a plausible theory. Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
5) OTOH, the biological argument would explain why the 6% of female pilots is so constant over time and place. BUT...there is another possibility here. Some people - and I suspect it's a measurable percentage - don't respond well to social conditioning. Maybe that percentage are the ones who buck the "boy thing" norm (or whatever) and become pilots (or whatever). that could explain the consistent percentage. At present that seems to me more plausible. But I could be wrong, and I'd love to see more research being done on this, and if I was younger and had stayed in the field instead of learning to fly, maybe I'd do it.....
Sorry to have probably bored most of you with this long post, and bye for now.
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WhirlyBird
It also does not take into account that the dividing line is you are a boy or you are a girl as we all know that line can be closer in biological makeup in some people rather than others and even very sexy girls can have male genes and visa versa.
some women have male traits and some men have female traits of differing degree.
not saying that women pilots are butch or tending to male biological makeup at all but find it interesting on why certain sectors go into caring or service industry and others go into perceived butch high adrenaline stuff.
Why are so many male cabin attendants gay?
We have all heard of the high profile gender testing cases in athletics?
Why do so many women go into nursing? not sure it was because mummy made the little girl dress up Dolls in nurses uniforms as a child.
I also question statistics and research as they can be tailored to suit any argument and usually are especially by drug companies or government who have a financial gain at heart or even by pressure groups trying to make a political point.
so really do not think it is as simple as whether you were dressed in pink or blue as a baby and we would all be the same if we were all dressed in grey as some would claim or whether you were a rebel (join the club)
Pace
It also does not take into account that the dividing line is you are a boy or you are a girl as we all know that line can be closer in biological makeup in some people rather than others and even very sexy girls can have male genes and visa versa.
some women have male traits and some men have female traits of differing degree.
not saying that women pilots are butch or tending to male biological makeup at all but find it interesting on why certain sectors go into caring or service industry and others go into perceived butch high adrenaline stuff.
Why are so many male cabin attendants gay?
We have all heard of the high profile gender testing cases in athletics?
Why do so many women go into nursing? not sure it was because mummy made the little girl dress up Dolls in nurses uniforms as a child.
I also question statistics and research as they can be tailored to suit any argument and usually are especially by drug companies or government who have a financial gain at heart or even by pressure groups trying to make a political point.
so really do not think it is as simple as whether you were dressed in pink or blue as a baby and we would all be the same if we were all dressed in grey as some would claim or whether you were a rebel (join the club)
Pace
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Whirlybird,
regarding the video, I didn't take notes either and it has been some time since I have watched it in full length, but no disagreement with either your summary or the potential limitations you mention. However, IMHO your phrase:
perfectly epitomizes whether it's an issue beyond academic discussion, even regardless of nature vs. nurture or widespread personality differences between women and men.
As long as the "it's a boy thing" is purely descriptive and girls are merely met with surprise because they are a statistical exception, I really do fail to see any problem that society should tackle. By contrast, a normative "it's a boy thing", implying that girls cannot or should not is a very different kettle of fish. And I feel that the discussion about women in aviation (or any other predominantly male activity) sometimes mixes up those two aspects. Put differently, I am as much for letting persons of either gender follow their interests without being sneered at for being "untypical" as I am against any quota idea along the lines of "50% of the population are women, so unless about 50% of pilots (or whatever) are women, too, there is a problem".
regarding the video, I didn't take notes either and it has been some time since I have watched it in full length, but no disagreement with either your summary or the potential limitations you mention. However, IMHO your phrase:
"It's a boy thing" barriers when I was training? Not barriers as such, simply....surprise.
As long as the "it's a boy thing" is purely descriptive and girls are merely met with surprise because they are a statistical exception, I really do fail to see any problem that society should tackle. By contrast, a normative "it's a boy thing", implying that girls cannot or should not is a very different kettle of fish. And I feel that the discussion about women in aviation (or any other predominantly male activity) sometimes mixes up those two aspects. Put differently, I am as much for letting persons of either gender follow their interests without being sneered at for being "untypical" as I am against any quota idea along the lines of "50% of the population are women, so unless about 50% of pilots (or whatever) are women, too, there is a problem".
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I'm a male, career, professional pilot who has been flying since 1967. Besides being too lazy to work and too nervous to steal, the thing I really enjoy about the profession is it's honesty and it's related lack of having to overthink or anal-ize real-time experiences (like some of these forums). 
You go home or to the hotel knowing immediately that you either did well or not so well. No long term findings or repercussions. You either did it or you didn't. You made spur of the moment decisions and immediately realized the outcome. That's pretty honest work that I appreciate, without suffering the grind of management by committee that is so prevalent in an office environment.
Just make a decision and fly the frickin airplane. Happy hour and dinner starts when we land.
Multi-colored male or female...it doesn't matter. Jump in the sim, show me your stuff and you'll have the job...if I get the feeling that you play well with other children. Attitude and aptitude...some people are their worst enemy.
You go home or to the hotel knowing immediately that you either did well or not so well. No long term findings or repercussions. You either did it or you didn't. You made spur of the moment decisions and immediately realized the outcome. That's pretty honest work that I appreciate, without suffering the grind of management by committee that is so prevalent in an office environment.
Just make a decision and fly the frickin airplane. Happy hour and dinner starts when we land.
Multi-colored male or female...it doesn't matter. Jump in the sim, show me your stuff and you'll have the job...if I get the feeling that you play well with other children. Attitude and aptitude...some people are their worst enemy.
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Desert
I to don't care about colour male female or whether there is a Gorilla in the other seat as long as they can fly
But that was not the thread question or answer
Pace
I to don't care about colour male female or whether there is a Gorilla in the other seat as long as they can fly
But that was not the thread question or answer
Pace
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Flarepilot:
If you are a troll, then I bite.
My partner was a TRI/TRE on the 757/767 for a major flag carrier at the age of 23, and she is now a test pilot for Airbus.
You?
Get back to the 19th Century. You have no place on a professional pilot's forum, and seem to be a prime example of the attitudes often faced by women in our profession.
really, how many famous or outstanding female pilots are there?
and I can name a dozen male pilots that are outstanding.
role models?
I also know that some airlines have gone out of the way to recruit and train and re train female pilots.
and I can name a dozen male pilots that are outstanding.
role models?
I also know that some airlines have gone out of the way to recruit and train and re train female pilots.
My partner was a TRI/TRE on the 757/767 for a major flag carrier at the age of 23, and she is now a test pilot for Airbus.
You?
Get back to the 19th Century. You have no place on a professional pilot's forum, and seem to be a prime example of the attitudes often faced by women in our profession.
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Pace:
Sorry we can't use you.
Desert
I to don't care about colour male female or whether there is a Gorilla in the other seat as long as they can fly
But that was not the thread question or answer
Pace
I to don't care about colour male female or whether there is a Gorilla in the other seat as long as they can fly
But that was not the thread question or answer
Pace
Sorry we can't use you.
The Original Whirly
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Armchairflyer,
Hmmmm...sometimes it's purely descriptive. Sometimes admiring even ("oh wow, you fly helicopters!"). But more often than not it's critical on some level or another. I could give examples, and I will if you want, but trust me, this is how it is, mine and many other women pilots' experiences. Though you're right, these aspects things do get mixed up sometimes. Also, some of us care more than others, but that's not the point.
I agree with you about the quota aspect, and I dislike any kind of quota, including so-called positive discrimination, which I feel is patronising to women and does more harm than good. But that's another topic.
As long as the "it's a boy thing" is purely descriptive and girls are merely met with surprise because they are a statistical exception, I really do fail to see any problem that society should tackle. By contrast, a normative "it's a boy thing", implying that girls cannot or should not is a very different kettle of fish. And I feel that the discussion about women in aviation (or any other predominantly male activity) sometimes mixes up those two aspects. Put differently, I am as much for letting persons of either gender follow their interests without being sneered at for being "untypical" as I am against any quota idea along the lines of "50% of the population are women, so unless about 50% of pilots (or whatever) are women, too, there is a problem".
I agree with you about the quota aspect, and I dislike any kind of quota, including so-called positive discrimination, which I feel is patronising to women and does more harm than good. But that's another topic.
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We've got a good mix
2 A-Cats Men
1 B-Cat/Dept CFI Woman-- soon to employ another
5 C-Cats 3 men and 2 women
I think its awesome having some diversity and have found at least in my case a bunch of very professional people operating in a relaxed and enjoyable environment.
Having the top two spots taken by a male and a female I thinks helps facilitate a open non bias (consciously and subconsciously) environment where students, pilots and instructors can be assured they a judged on their ability and attitude for its own merits and not influenced by whats in their pants.
There are both good and bad pilots, both female and male (and some in between) lets not make that assumption based off of gender but their individual ability and behavior.
2 A-Cats Men
1 B-Cat/Dept CFI Woman-- soon to employ another
5 C-Cats 3 men and 2 women
I think its awesome having some diversity and have found at least in my case a bunch of very professional people operating in a relaxed and enjoyable environment.
Having the top two spots taken by a male and a female I thinks helps facilitate a open non bias (consciously and subconsciously) environment where students, pilots and instructors can be assured they a judged on their ability and attitude for its own merits and not influenced by whats in their pants.
There are both good and bad pilots, both female and male (and some in between) lets not make that assumption based off of gender but their individual ability and behavior.
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Male nurses have been 10% of the total for 40 years. I think cos the uniform is not so sexy.
A more interesting debate based on this thread may be why so many pilots went to private schools that had CCF.
(RGN.RMN.PPL)
A more interesting debate based on this thread may be why so many pilots went to private schools that had CCF.
(RGN.RMN.PPL)
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I don't know where the following fit in,-
Boys generally grow up thinking the kitchen is a "girly" place Though I believe it's now compulsory for boys to do some Domestic Science, sewing ("Textiles?" ) etc.
Usually, there's a bit of resistance to these "emasculating" activities..bloody odd that most professional chefs. bakers and couturiers and tailors are.....MALE
A surprisingly large percentage of babies are born with no clearly defined sex....not quite hermaphrodite, but not fully formed.
apparently the size of the Clitoris determined which way the medics "pushed" the infant's sexuality..... that may account for a lot of gay/ transgender decisions/lifestyles.
My daughter grew up with two brothers....would happily play with lego, do woodwork, metalwork, plastics moulding, baking, candlemaking etc. despite dad being a mechanic, showed no interest in cars, until she came of driving age and was the first to learn and pass her test.
Having ignored advice about "bangers" burning oil and the necessity of heeding an oil-light, she siezed the engine. dad helped her to fit another engine, clutch, cylinder head etc. she learned and absorbed the fundamental mechanics......
As a student she worked in a call centre....young male colleague arrives late.....#@><*^ car won't start, but it's OK when it eventually does, says he....Ah, it'll be the points, says she....lad totally unconvinced, but lets her have a look and is somewhat surprised that she can find her way round an engine....even more surprise when, through lack of tools, she bends the fixed-point , reassembles and say's "try that"....car springs into life instantly....she now has a new best friend at work.!
Nature or nurture?....dunno....pretty sure the sexes, at a primitive level, have the natural affinity with home-making / rearing (female) or hunter/gatherer/ protector (male)...but see point above , re- medical interference with newborns.......I believe there is a more enlightened approach gaining ground to the question "what have we got?" the unsayable, " Well , your baby's not physically formed to one gender or the other,yet." Is now getting spoken....about bloody time! medical profession have finally acknowledged they're not god .
Boys generally grow up thinking the kitchen is a "girly" place Though I believe it's now compulsory for boys to do some Domestic Science, sewing ("Textiles?" ) etc.
Usually, there's a bit of resistance to these "emasculating" activities..bloody odd that most professional chefs. bakers and couturiers and tailors are.....MALE
A surprisingly large percentage of babies are born with no clearly defined sex....not quite hermaphrodite, but not fully formed.
apparently the size of the Clitoris determined which way the medics "pushed" the infant's sexuality..... that may account for a lot of gay/ transgender decisions/lifestyles.
My daughter grew up with two brothers....would happily play with lego, do woodwork, metalwork, plastics moulding, baking, candlemaking etc. despite dad being a mechanic, showed no interest in cars, until she came of driving age and was the first to learn and pass her test.
Having ignored advice about "bangers" burning oil and the necessity of heeding an oil-light, she siezed the engine. dad helped her to fit another engine, clutch, cylinder head etc. she learned and absorbed the fundamental mechanics......
As a student she worked in a call centre....young male colleague arrives late.....#@><*^ car won't start, but it's OK when it eventually does, says he....Ah, it'll be the points, says she....lad totally unconvinced, but lets her have a look and is somewhat surprised that she can find her way round an engine....even more surprise when, through lack of tools, she bends the fixed-point , reassembles and say's "try that"....car springs into life instantly....she now has a new best friend at work.!
Nature or nurture?....dunno....pretty sure the sexes, at a primitive level, have the natural affinity with home-making / rearing (female) or hunter/gatherer/ protector (male)...but see point above , re- medical interference with newborns.......I believe there is a more enlightened approach gaining ground to the question "what have we got?" the unsayable, " Well , your baby's not physically formed to one gender or the other,yet." Is now getting spoken....about bloody time! medical profession have finally acknowledged they're not god .
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I know women in their 40s who weren't allowed to choose 'Technology' at school. It would have 'nudged' the less determined ones away from that career.
Another woman (early 30s) who wanted a technical career had tremendous pressure from her grandmother to leave school at 16 to 'enjoy herself before she had a family'. She did stay on at school, but didn't continue with the career as she had children early. Whether she would have done this anyway, I don't know, but she certainly was 'nudged' into a particular action.
There's a surprising amount of social pressure on women even now. I touched on this in my earlier post - does society disapprove of women who don't put their families first? Many men spend all day at weekends at the airfield, but few women do.
In a slightly different vein, a few years ago a woman climber, who had children, was killed, and there was criticism in parts of the media about her taking 'such a risk'. I don't remember any criticism about men with children taking risks. Mothers in the media are criticised for 'putting their careers first' and being away from home, even though their husbands are at home with the children. Fathers aren't criticised for working away.
Another woman (early 30s) who wanted a technical career had tremendous pressure from her grandmother to leave school at 16 to 'enjoy herself before she had a family'. She did stay on at school, but didn't continue with the career as she had children early. Whether she would have done this anyway, I don't know, but she certainly was 'nudged' into a particular action.
There's a surprising amount of social pressure on women even now. I touched on this in my earlier post - does society disapprove of women who don't put their families first? Many men spend all day at weekends at the airfield, but few women do.
In a slightly different vein, a few years ago a woman climber, who had children, was killed, and there was criticism in parts of the media about her taking 'such a risk'. I don't remember any criticism about men with children taking risks. Mothers in the media are criticised for 'putting their careers first' and being away from home, even though their husbands are at home with the children. Fathers aren't criticised for working away.