Anyone been through US immigration recently?

[weetabix]

Hi,

Two friends and myself are off to the USA in three weeks for a long flying holiday . One of these two friends and I did PPLs there (in LA) two years ago and had no problems passing through immigration -I said I was on a 'recreational flying course' and they had no objections. The other is doing his PPL this time.

For obvious reasons US Immigration is now being more strict and while the rep for the flight school doesn't think there'll be any problems i'd rather be sure! Do you know of any friends or perhaps yourself who have travelled into the US with the intention of flying in the past few months? What did they/you tell the immigration officer and what was his/her response?

We're going for 5 weeks which i'm worried may be longer than the allowed time on the new tourist visa regulations...

We're all Brits and 21ish. I'm mainly doing hour building and perhaps an IMC at the JAA school we're going to.

Any advice would be a great help. Thanks in advance!

[Keef]

I went on a two-week visit to get an IR, and there was no problem.

If you're going to study for something that will take more than (I think) a month, you need a visa of some sort.

If you're going on a flying holiday, with a few days training thrown in, I think you're OK.

Richard Gentil is the man who will know...

[weetabix]

Thanks Keef... so who is this Richard Gentil and how do I contact him? Did you go very recently or more than a month or two ago? I know that new immigration rules are coming into force soon and since the discovery that the hijackers on the WTC flights had Student Visas there's been somewhat of a clampdown on immigration regulations.

I guess the best thing to do is call the Embassy direct tomorrow, although what the rules say and what people are actually allowed to do are not always exactly the same thing! More comments on other people's experiences would be nice...

cheers
Weetabix

[Max Rampwaite]

Weet...most of the school agents will tell you what you want to hear....in order for you to book with them and not with "the competition".

Richard Gentil - who has a reputation for telling the truth on pprune - will probably tell you that your student friend DOES need a visa TO DO THE PPL COURSE... but you do not not for the flying holiday - unless you are stoopid enough to mention that you may do extra ratings whilst there.

[Keef]

Richard Gentil - CEO of Naples Air Center, where I did the IR. He'll tell it like it is.

His (or rather, his wife's) advice to me was that to do an IR in two weeks I did not need a visa, but if I stayed more than a month doing flying training, I definitely would.

That may have changed recently. Best suggestion I can make, unless Richard pops up with the answer, is to have a good browse of the web.

Calling the US Embassy is mostly a waste of time. I've done it a few times, and found it very frustrating. I didn't get the information I wanted.

Sorry, and all that.

[englishal]

If you're there to fly for fun, as opposed to a course, then no visa required. If you're there to undertake US ratings like the FAA IR, then visa required......though of course, should your selective memory fail to mention this to the INS person, then there should be no problems. When I did my IR, they didn't ask, so I didn't tell, and everyone was happy.....come to mention it, when I did my PPL in California, I forgot to tell the INS guy too.....oops.

Cheers
EA

[weetabix]

Thanks for your replies so far! -very helpful.

I am intending to sight see mostly and will only consider doing a JAA IMC rating over there if I suddenly find myself bored with spare cash -NOT LIKELY!!
I think i'll just say i'm on holiday (which I will be) and only mention flying if they ask. I do not intend to break immigration rules because I want to be allowed back in the future!

We shall see...

[slim_slag]

I am intending to sight see mostl....... I think i'll just say i'm on holiday (which I will be) and only mention flying if they ask.

If this is the case - if flying is ancillary to your visit - then you are totally legal entering on the visa waiver.

Of course, they don't have to let you in at all. They consider it a total priviledge to be allowed to come here, and they are doing you a massive favour admitting you.

Having said that they really don't give a toss about Brits. They have all the figures on who stays and who goes home and the overstay rates for Brits is almost non-existant. They know exactly who to look at, for a Brit they really are just rubber stamping your application. They love Brits over here, don't worry about it, but still no need to offer anything unless they specifically mention it. Don't lie!

[FlyingForFun]

I also didn't offer any more information than I was asked - I was there on holiday. "For 8 weeks?" "Yes - I'll be travelling around a bit." All entirely true - I hired an Arrow to take me out of the State. Twice.

I decided to leave my headset at home, though - I'm pretty sure the guy operating the X-ray machines doesn't see too many aviation headsets, so I wasn't sure if it would attract attention or not.

As for Visas, as englishal says, it's not required if you're not undertaking an officially recognised training course. Do you expect the guy at immigration to know that an IR is an official course, but a type checkout isn't? I wouldn't. If you have time before you leave, I'd apply for a Visa, even if it's not required, just to be on the safe side. Having said that, I didn't have time to arrange Visa, went without one, and didn't have any problems.

FFF
----------

[weetabix]

Thanks Slim & FFF,

Well i've just been onto the US Embassy in London website and they've updated it since I last checked it a week or two ago. Last time I went there I left more confused than when I arrived. They've clarified it now, so i'm sure i'm OK for the length of stay to which i'm 'entitled'. It had been reported by the media (and the US embassy on the phone and website('i believe')) that the VWP and/or Student visa were to be shortened to 30 days.
This is what is written on the US Embassy website:

There have been several reports in the media concerning proposed changes to the rules governing visitors and students entering the United States. This has caused much confusion, especially for those travelers seeking to enter the U.S. visa free under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). We hope that the following will clarify any issues which have been raised.

The proposed changes do not apply to visa free travelers applying for admission into the United States under the VWP. Qualified VWP travelers will continue to be admitted for the full 90 day period.

The proposed changes will not automatically limit holders of B-2 visas to a visit of 30 days...

I feel more assured now and thought i'd post the above for anyone else in a similar position to myself!

cheers
weet

[Whirlybird]

I went to the US on April 10th, and came back on May 1st, having done 52.6 hours helicopter flying (and 0.9 hours f/w). My hand luggage was a flight bag with CPL(H), PPL(A), 2 log books, headset, and other flying paraphernalia. I said I was going on holiday, and if asked, was going to say I planned to do some flying while I was there. But I was never asked. The only minor difficulty was at Manchester, when they grilled everyone before even letting then on the (American Airlines) flight. The guy seemed to find it deeply suspicious that I'd been to both Turkey and Egypt. He wanted to know when, and if both trips were in the same year. I said I couldn't remember when, but I booked a cheap week's winter holiday every year, as living in North Wales I was usually desperate to get some sunshine. He seemed to believe me. Other than that it was all easy, but extremely time consuming; you need to arrive at least two hours before your flight; three is better.

[khorne]

US Immigration

I have one piece of advice - if you are considering leaving things such as headsets at home so as not to make it obvious you are on a flying holiday. Bear in mind that you go through immigration BEFORE you collect your luggage so there shouldn't be any kind of problem if they are stuffed full of flying stuff.

I had a recent run in with immigration which would be funny if it wasn't such a pain. A friend and I flew our Mooney across from the UK to Chicago. We had assumed that crossing the Atlantic was the hard bit but US customs and immigration made the whole thing a farce. To cut a long (6 hours of phone calls!) story short I was not entitled to fly across the border on the Visa Waiver Scheme as this is for airlines not private aircraft. My friend had a visa from a previous (working) trip and so he had to fly across the actual border and pick me up at the nearest airport on the other side. I crossed by taxi having found two airports 10 miles either side of the border. The reason for the 6 hours of phone calls was that they initially insisted that a British aircraft had to clear customs at Detroit or Chicago first in case "we were carrying foot and mouth" but we eventually got let off this requirement.

[weetabix]

Whirlybird/khorne,

Thanks for the input. Whirly: I read your journal of your trip to California with great interest and am considering doing something similar myself should at the time it seem as interesting.
I don't really want to fork out on a new headset (although a shiny new DC would be nice) so I think i'll lob mine in my tank of a suitcase. Unfortunately I haven't been anywhere exotic recently so my 'clean' passport shouldn't cause any interest (apart from the photo, perhaps )! I will arrive early though.

After all this I think i'll have to resurrect this post when I get there and let you know how it went!!

[poetpilot]

Weetabix, would be interested to see how you get on over there. I'll be going out in July to do my biennial renewal and some flight time - have also been promised some trips in a Citabria by a guy I correspond with, so should be a good trip.

Whirly, can you just confirm that no problems encountered with any of your aviation kit in the hand baggage? I was planning on the headsets going into main luggage, with logbooks etc staying with me.

[englishal]

I went out last October (13th) and returned on Dec 8th, then went out again on Jan 4th and returned on 1st March. I checked in my headset but carried my flight bag with licence and logbook in. On arrival in LAX in October, all my luggage was x-rayed (x-raying after arrival...thats a new one!), but no one seemed to care that I had flight kit on me. I carried all my kit with me on a number of domestic flights (Maui, Detroit) and the only thing the security people seemed to worry about, was my shoes. In fact I had my shoes x-rayed about 5 times, (and I think they're starting to glow), but no one said a word about my flight gear.

Cheers
EA

[Whirlybird]

poetpilot,

Actually I had my headset in my suitcase. But I kept my logbooks and licences with me at all times (except when I nearly left the bag behind ). Everything was X-rayed at frequent intervals, but as it happened no-one actually searched my bag. If they had I was just going to say I was a pilot, and that I might do some flying while I was in California, so I'd brought them in case I decided to. But I was never asked.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

weetabix,

For any courses a Visa is required. For recreational flying, you do not need a Visa, but if you can get a Visa, do. It makes entering the country a lot easier.

Right now there are new changes going into place. President Bush just signed a new immigration bill into law and INS is tightening the flight training rules.

In an Article from Fox News titled Attorney General Announces New Foreign-Student Tracking System they reported the following:

Attorney General John Ashcroft announced a new student visa tracking program Friday that would create an Internet-based system allowing the Immigration and Naturalization Service to keep tabs on hundreds of thousands of foreign students.

Last month, the INS said it would close the loophole Atta and Al Shehhi exploited by not allowing foreign students to enroll in school unless their visas were already approved.

I have been hearing reports of students being turned back to the U.K. for not having Visas. Last month, a school who does not have Visa Authority had 4 out of their 8 U.K. students turned back. The month prior they even had a student turned in by the flight crew because he was reading a Trevor Thom book on the aircraft.

When you enter the country for flying get a Visa if you can and when in front of Immigration, tell the truth.

Best of Luck,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[englishal]

Turned back for reading Trevor Thom !!.....They'll start turning back people for reading Andy McNabb books on the aeroplane soon (Ex. SAS bloke, in case you haven't heard of him....writes espionage and war books).....

Land of the free is rapidly becoming Land of the un-free I'm sorry to say....

Cheers
EA

[weetabix]

Well my opinion of what I should do has turned full circle over the length of this one thread!

I really appreciate your input Richard, thank you. I will take your advice which seems well balanced and is i'm sure well informed. I'll apply for a visa tomorrow and leave these worries behind!

It's a shame the system seems so 'up in the air' but then I know who we should really blame for that .

Weet

[slim_slag]

It's a shame the system seems so 'up in the air'

The system is not 'up in the air', you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

If you are coming to the US on holiday and while you are here you want to rent a plane you don't need a visa. You don't need a visa to rent a car at LAX, a set of skis in the Rockies, or a hooker in Vegas. Europeans think flying small planes is a big deal, in the USA it's not. You will not be able to get time on a 747 simulator now, but nobody gives a rats-ass if you want to rent a warrior and putz around for a week or four.

If you want to apply for a tourist visa and spend money better spent on flying then go ahead. You don't need to, you are a British Citizen so can enter on the Visa Waiver scheme. Millions of Brits enter the US annually with no problems at all, they don't care about Brits. If they cared about the Brits they would require yout to get a visa, they don't. When you have done some more travelling you will get it!

If anything, the INS guy will say to himself 'why did this British tourist get a visa when he does not need one??' You are making yourself stand out with your white I94 when the rest of the plane are standing there with their green I94W. Don't stand out, don't think the INS dude will be impressed because you are a pilot, don't volunteer anything, but most importantly don't lie.

Now I bet I have really screwed you up!!! Have fun flying out here, you will have a blast!