EASA aerobatic rating
Thats right, because an AOPA/EASA/BAeA Aerobatics rating is the same as a high altitude jet upset!
A 'high altitude jet upset' is most likely due to either inadequate training, woeful monitoring or basic complacency by thoroughly medicocre SOP-is-God people-tube minders. Or a combination of all three.
When it does go wrong, as we have seen on far too many occasions, these inept numpties haven't the faintest idea why - or what to do about it.
At least with some basic aerobatic and confidence manouevre experience, they might not turn into gibbering idiots if the AoB exceeds 25 deg....
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Emotive language Beagle but I agree with your line of thought. Example.....
I was in the simulator a couple of years ago with a colleague (Captain, 10,000 hours experience, 3,000 on type; type was a twin jet small airliner). We were dealing with a single engine problem of some sort, he was the Flying Pilot and I was doing some sort of checklist procedures (can't remember what). He had the Auto Pilot engaged and he gave me control for some reason (can't remember - doesn't matter) but, just as I said "I have ....." the AP tripped out and the aeroplane rapidly rolled to the left and dropped it's nose. I applied corrective controls but we reached about 90 deg bank and 20 deg nose down before it started to come back, we lost about 500' which was somewhat of a concern as we had started at about 1800' agl.
The other pilot had been increasing power to level off just before he gave me control; as he increased power he had not applied any rudder nor had he trimmed the rudder so the AP had been applying more and more aileron to try to fly straight on the selected heading until eventually it reached its limit and tripped off.
So far so what but, now the scary bit! As I got us under control my colleague said "I'm glad you were flying it, I couldn't have done that"! It was actually a very simple upset recovery but with little time to spare due to the speed of departure and the low height at which it happened. We did have a discussion after the sim about recoveries.
Inadequate training? Inappropriate mental attitude? Lack of self confidence? Probably all three but it all added up to a "people tube minder" who was not able to fly his aeroplane when the need arose.
I'm sure that many others can tell similar stories. It is a worry and I do believe that more aerobatics, manoeuvring and upset recovery training should be included in an airline pilots background before he is let loose to run around the world in a people tube.
Happy landings
3 Point
I was in the simulator a couple of years ago with a colleague (Captain, 10,000 hours experience, 3,000 on type; type was a twin jet small airliner). We were dealing with a single engine problem of some sort, he was the Flying Pilot and I was doing some sort of checklist procedures (can't remember what). He had the Auto Pilot engaged and he gave me control for some reason (can't remember - doesn't matter) but, just as I said "I have ....." the AP tripped out and the aeroplane rapidly rolled to the left and dropped it's nose. I applied corrective controls but we reached about 90 deg bank and 20 deg nose down before it started to come back, we lost about 500' which was somewhat of a concern as we had started at about 1800' agl.
The other pilot had been increasing power to level off just before he gave me control; as he increased power he had not applied any rudder nor had he trimmed the rudder so the AP had been applying more and more aileron to try to fly straight on the selected heading until eventually it reached its limit and tripped off.
So far so what but, now the scary bit! As I got us under control my colleague said "I'm glad you were flying it, I couldn't have done that"! It was actually a very simple upset recovery but with little time to spare due to the speed of departure and the low height at which it happened. We did have a discussion after the sim about recoveries.
Inadequate training? Inappropriate mental attitude? Lack of self confidence? Probably all three but it all added up to a "people tube minder" who was not able to fly his aeroplane when the need arose.
I'm sure that many others can tell similar stories. It is a worry and I do believe that more aerobatics, manoeuvring and upset recovery training should be included in an airline pilots background before he is let loose to run around the world in a people tube.
Happy landings
3 Point
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Thanks guys. Made me feel better. What I said was genuinely what I believed. Thought Jonty was a bit harsh in his/her comment. I'm never going to have to worry about a high altitude jet upset, but I'm sure that aerobatic experience has given me more confidence to cope with whatever the light aircraft that I fly can throw at me. It's by no means an "I can get out of anything" comment, just that I think I will now fare better than I otherwise would!
Of course Beagle is right! After completing our EASA Aerobatics rating in our C152 Aerobats we will banish these types of accidents to the history books.
How stupid of the airline industry not to realise this earlier.
Some understanding of the reasons behind these accidents (and you don't say which specifically you're referring to) would be useful before commenting on the "children of magenta". Don't forget, many of these "children" have far more aerobatic training, in far more advanced aircraft than you give them credit for.
Basic stick and rudder skills are always useful, but to think that they will save a jet upset situation on their own shows a basic lack of understanding of the problem.
How stupid of the airline industry not to realise this earlier.
Some understanding of the reasons behind these accidents (and you don't say which specifically you're referring to) would be useful before commenting on the "children of magenta". Don't forget, many of these "children" have far more aerobatic training, in far more advanced aircraft than you give them credit for.
Basic stick and rudder skills are always useful, but to think that they will save a jet upset situation on their own shows a basic lack of understanding of the problem.
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Some less emotional material on the benefits and limitations of aerobatic training for addressing loss of control scenarios can be found here: Aerobatics versus Upset Prevention and Recovery Training | International Committee for Aviation Training in Extended Envelopes
