Flying night VFR without licence back?

[banditb6]

Now the nights are drawing in I am wanting to do my night rating, I am unable to find out if this is indeed a rating that will be added to my licence or a signature in my logbook?

If I do need to apply for it onto my licence, after the 5 hours required will I then be able to Solo or will I need to wait for my licence to be returned?

Thanks

[S-Works]

Its a rating and thus a licence entry. You can't exercise the privileges until its in your hand.

[banditb6]

That's what I was worried about, will have to get the rating done ASAP so I can actually use the thing! Thanks

[Pace]

Bandit

Crazy world this flying game! Apart from the risks of engine failure at night or even the fact that any failure is far worse at night I fail to understand why the powers that be issue a night rating which is not part of a solid instrument flying capability.

The chances of becoming disorientated at night or even worse entering cloud are significant with no real ability to deal with it! but that is the crazy way our regulations often based from decades ago still are there today someone please explain for I fail to understand?

Pace

[englishal]

Multi engine turbine pilots are chicken when it comes to flying SEPs across water or at night

But if you ignore the perceived risks, flying at night is great. I did one recently in California around mountains and it was an amazing flight. Admittedly I was IFR at the time and shot the GPS approach but the stars were out, and it was very smooth and relaxing. (It was a straight in approach but only circling minima were listed which I didn't understand why until I turned on the runway lights...there was not control tower here).

Anyway my view on night flying is that it is actually no different to day flying, other than it is dark. Landings are no different really. If you fly on VFR nights with the stars out then there is not really much chance of getting into the cloud, and if the moon is out then you can see quite a lot.

Just don't think about the engine stopping....then I guess it will be down to luck how your landing is.

[BEagle]

Multi engine turbine pilots are chicken when it comes to flying SEPs across water or at night.

Presumably they aren't too keen either on flying in day IMC even to IMCr limits? If the engine gives up on an ILS with a 450' DH, the chances of a successful forced landing are pretty slim.....

Just suck it up, girls

[Katamarino]

Although you may think that it's the training and practice in the aircraft that gives you the proficiency to fly at night, the CAA knows better. It's actually the possession of a poorly printed piece of paper that ensures safety, and this is why you can't fly until they print it out and send it to you.

Of course, in the USA they issue a temporary licence there in the spot after you pass a flight test, but in Europe this would just be terribly dangerous

[OhNoCB]

Perhaps interestingly, on inquiring with the CAA a couple of months ago, I was told that yes, a night rating is indeed a rating, but no, it should not appear as a rating on your licence. It is inferred by "night: nil" under restrictions.

[LAI]

That's interesting CB. My new EASA licence has "Night" listed on the Ratings Held page. On the JAR one ISTR that it wasn't mentioned at all, as having a Night Rating (or Qualification then) was a prerequisite of either the CPL or IR (Can't remember which).

I sometimes think that certain sections of the CAA must have a set of rotating answers to various questions, which change depending on the day of the week you happen to call!

[Silvaire1]

Of course, in the USA they issue a temporary licence there in the spot after you pass a flight test, but in Europe this would just be terribly dangerous

And the first time they do that, for your Private Certificate, it includes night flying for the rest of your life. Shocking

[BabyBear]

Originally Posted by Katamarino

Although you may think that it's the training and practice in the aircraft that gives you the proficiency to fly at night, the CAA knows better. It's actually the possession of a poorly printed piece of paper that ensures safety, and this is why you can't fly until they print it out and send it to you.

My take on this has always been that the CAA restrict flying, not to do with a piece of paper, but to ensure the application is succesful. IE the applicant is entitled to the licence and therefore to fly.

BB

[S-Works]

Its nothing to do with whether the piece of paper makes you safe or not, it is just down to the way that European law is rather archaically written. To change it would involve huge effort and expense which is a bit pointless just to save you waiting for a bit of paper to be sent out.

Not sure what the fuss is about really. Its going to get dark every day right until the point when the sun goes out permanently so it's not like you have a dwindling opportunity.....

[OhNoCB]

That's interesting CB. My new EASA licence has "Night" listed on the Ratings Held page. On the JAR one ISTR that it wasn't mentioned at all, as having a Night Rating (or Qualification then) was a prerequisite of either the CPL or IR (Can't remember which).

I thought it was a bit strange too. My previous licence was a JAR PPL which displayed it as the inclusion of the text: "The privileges of this licence may be exercised at night".

Naturally I thought since it was now a rating it would be under ratings, but when I queried it on the phone, the lady put me on hold and went to check with a "Technical Support Officer" who confirmed that it should be under "Restrictions .... Night: Nil".

I think it depends on who does your licence however, as my IMC rating is down as "IRR(A)" which is exactly the same as what a colleague of mine has that entitles him to renew instrument ratings!

[S-Works]

My night rating appears in section XII as a night rating.

As it does not require renewal or revalidation it does not appear in the certificate of revalidation pages.

I think it depends

on who does your licence however, as my IMC rating is down as "IRR(A)" which is exactly the same as what a colleague of mine has that entitles him to renew instrument ratings!

No it's not. That's an IRRE....

Your IMC should be entered as IR(Restricted)

[englishal]

Mines an IRR(A)

[F4TCT]

You mention that the night needs no revalidation.....

I thought you had to do atleast 3 take offs and landings each 90 days before you could carry passangers.

I suppose I've answered my own question - the issue of passengers.

Is anything different under easa?

Must send off my licence to be changed. Is there anything bar the 1104 form thing that's needs to be done? What about the RT cert?

Dan

[Dave Wilson]

I think (I'm probably wrong, usually am) that it's three take offs and landings one of which has to be at night in the last 90 days for the passenger rule.

Edit: that's for the carrying of passengers of night.

As an aside, does anyone take passengers flying at night in SEP's? It's something I don't do as I feel uncomfortable with it. I don't mind flying with another pilot(s) as they know the increased risk.

[BEagle]

As an aside, does anyone take passengers flying at night in SEPs? It's something I don't do as I feel uncomfortable with it.

Why ever not? Do you fly day IMC approaches with passengers?

[Dave Wilson]

Yes, but then if the fan stops I feel, however stupidly, that I may stand a chance of putting it down with a greater chance of survival than if the same happened at night.

You know as well as I do that a fan stop at night is an 'aim at the dark bits' scenario.

I take your point which is a valid one. I guess it's about perceived risk. I would hope that I would have the airmanship not to put a passenger into a situation where I would need to be doing an IMC approach down to minima anyway. With another pilot I wouldn't think twice, however it's unfair to subject a non pilot to the same risk. Just IMO.

I sometimes take my eight year old grandson flying. The weather has to be perfect or as near as for me to do so.

[OhNoCB]

No it's not. That's an IRRE....

Your IMC should be entered as IR(Restricted)

I may have not been clear, I appreciate it would be an IRRE but my point here is that he does not have IRRE, but has IRR(A) which the CAA assured him was correct in EASA speak for IRRE. He also has IR(R) for an IMC rating.

I on the other hand do not hold any IRRE privileges, but have an IMC rating and the corresponding entry on my licence is "IRR(A)".