Piper Turbo Saratoga down near Arnsberg
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Piper Turbo Saratoga down near Arnsberg
Reports just coming in of a PA32 having crashed near Wickede. Apparently the plane was in the process of landing at EDLA but hit trees. 4 adults, one child killed, 3 children taken to hospital, condition unknown.
A sad day for general aviation, my thoughts are with the family of those killed and injured.
A sad day for general aviation, my thoughts are with the family of those killed and injured.
Last edited by Steve6443; 27th Aug 2013 at 18:10.
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Very sad, more so when children are involved. RIP
ASN Aircraft accident 27-AUG-2013 Piper PA-32R-301T Turbo ...
aviation-safety.net ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...51156542,d.d2k
ASN Aircraft accident 27-AUG-2013 Piper PA-32R-301T Turbo ...
aviation-safety.net ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...51156542,d.d2k
Last edited by Jetblu; 27th Aug 2013 at 20:08.
According to German media there were four adults and four children in the aircraft, three children survived badly injured with two of those having been thrown clear of the wreck.
Absolutely horrible, particularly when children are involved.
Depending on their age, German law permits children to share or even sit on an adult's lap in such an aircraft.
Nonetheless doesn't seem safe to me to carry any passenger who cannot be provided with a proper restraint system, regardless of what may be lawful.
What do Saratoga operators say? Is this common practice?
Absolutely horrible, particularly when children are involved.
Depending on their age, German law permits children to share or even sit on an adult's lap in such an aircraft.
Nonetheless doesn't seem safe to me to carry any passenger who cannot be provided with a proper restraint system, regardless of what may be lawful.
What do Saratoga operators say? Is this common practice?
The German AAIB published a press release today regarding this accident:
Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung - Homepage - Pressemitteilung zum Unfall mit einer Piper PA32 am 27. August 2013 in der Nähe von Arnsberg
It contains a somewhat cryptic statement according to which
"The tanks in both wings and the fuel lines were damaged. Fuel was not found"
Which could be interpreted to mean that fuel was neither found in the tanks nor at the crash site, thus implying that the aircraft ran out fuel.
One of the children (16 months old) is still hospitalized with life-threatening injuries.
Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung - Homepage - Pressemitteilung zum Unfall mit einer Piper PA32 am 27. August 2013 in der Nähe von Arnsberg
It contains a somewhat cryptic statement according to which
"The tanks in both wings and the fuel lines were damaged. Fuel was not found"
Which could be interpreted to mean that fuel was neither found in the tanks nor at the crash site, thus implying that the aircraft ran out fuel.
One of the children (16 months old) is still hospitalized with life-threatening injuries.
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additional information
According AAIB report the flight started at Dortmund - EDLW - proceeded to Arnsberg - EDLA and from there to Langeoog -EDWL. From EDWL it apparently went straight back to EDLA.
The distance EDLA - EDWL - as a crow flies is about 280 Km = 150 NM.
Empty tanks, no fuel found ?? But there is no refuelling possibility on Langeoog airfield - EDWL - !!
The max. range of a Saratoga apparently is more than double the distance of all flights covered by the accident aircraft known so far on that day.
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The distance EDLA - EDWL - as a crow flies is about 280 Km = 150 NM.
Empty tanks, no fuel found ?? But there is no refuelling possibility on Langeoog airfield - EDWL - !!
The max. range of a Saratoga apparently is more than double the distance of all flights covered by the accident aircraft known so far on that day.
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Last edited by Annex14; 30th Aug 2013 at 15:01.
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update
Todays newspaper have reported that the public prosecutor and the police have determined the cause of the accident was: the flight ran out of fuel (dry tanks) and the pilot obviously tried to reach Arnsberg airfield instead of making a intentional and controlled emergency landing on a suitable field or meadow.
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How dreadful. Especially for the children and the effects on the lives of the children who survived.
I don't know about the Saratoga, but if I put four adults and luggage in my Cirrus, I can't fill the tanks full without being over max weight. Is that potentially an issue here as it affects the range of this aircraft?
I don't know about the Saratoga, but if I put four adults and luggage in my Cirrus, I can't fill the tanks full without being over max weight. Is that potentially an issue here as it affects the range of this aircraft?
Last edited by Jonzarno; 31st Aug 2013 at 09:14.
the public prosecutor and the police have determined the cause of the accident was
Eight people in an aircraft with six seats and ran out of fuel. It beggars belief.
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no miracle
8 "people" in a 6 seater ?? Sounds strange, but a look who this people were shows there is no miracle-
killed : Pilot, 59 - Grandma, 72 - Mother, 34 - Nephew, 15 - Boy, 5
survived: Girl,16 Month - Boy, 4 - Girl, 7
It appears to be legal under given circumstances to have two children share one seat.
killed : Pilot, 59 - Grandma, 72 - Mother, 34 - Nephew, 15 - Boy, 5
survived: Girl,16 Month - Boy, 4 - Girl, 7
It appears to be legal under given circumstances to have two children share one seat.
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Taking a mean average and a guesstimate of the weights, taking full fuel on-board would have been impossible, unless he went overweight. Taking off with full tanks is obviously ruled out as the next innuendo wouldn't make much sense.
The allegation of "running out of fuel" and the distances involved here suggests that he must have started of with less than full tanks. The potential range of the Saratoga with full tanks is just under 1000 miles.
Even here in the UK it is also legal to carry small children on the lap of an adult.
Normally, adult/child will occupy the middle row in the club seat configuration.
*Edit* My guess only. Nephew RHS
Mother/Grandmother/16 month baby/ (Middle row)
4, 5 and 7 year old (rear forward facing seats)
The allegation of "running out of fuel" and the distances involved here suggests that he must have started of with less than full tanks. The potential range of the Saratoga with full tanks is just under 1000 miles.
Even here in the UK it is also legal to carry small children on the lap of an adult.
Normally, adult/child will occupy the middle row in the club seat configuration.
*Edit* My guess only. Nephew RHS
Mother/Grandmother/16 month baby/ (Middle row)
4, 5 and 7 year old (rear forward facing seats)
Last edited by Jetblu; 31st Aug 2013 at 10:26.
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Annex14:
"The max. range of a Saratoga apparently is more than double the distance of all flights covered by the accident aircraft known so far on that day."
Correct. But this Saratoga had neither been refueled in Dortmund prior to the first leg to Arnsberg, nor has it been anywhere else on the round-trip. Yet we have no idea on how much useable fuel the pilotīs calculations were based. Certainly a lot less than 100 gal.
"The max. range of a Saratoga apparently is more than double the distance of all flights covered by the accident aircraft known so far on that day."
Correct. But this Saratoga had neither been refueled in Dortmund prior to the first leg to Arnsberg, nor has it been anywhere else on the round-trip. Yet we have no idea on how much useable fuel the pilotīs calculations were based. Certainly a lot less than 100 gal.
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Full tanks on a Saratoga (107 usg) will knock 600lbs off the useful load. If the aircraft was very light (like my Saratoga, which has a useful load of 1,300lbs) I doubt (given he had eight souls on board) whether that would have left enough lifting capacity for all the pax. So he would have had less on board.
Being conservative (and assuming modest levels of leaning and that he wasn't running around at full-bore, but had a 65% power setting etc.), full tanks would have 6.5hrs range, with 0.5 hrs vfr reserves. you can then work the sums backwards from here.
Being conservative (and assuming modest levels of leaning and that he wasn't running around at full-bore, but had a 65% power setting etc.), full tanks would have 6.5hrs range, with 0.5 hrs vfr reserves. you can then work the sums backwards from here.
Last edited by wsmempson; 2nd Sep 2013 at 16:50.
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20milesout
Fully agree with your statement. Had the same suspicion but not eager enough to post them.
Looks very much of another case of a misled "believer" ! A fuelgauge is never as accurate as some might believe it is.
He should have refuelled either after that short Dortmund - Arnsberg flight before leaving for EDWL, or after the short hop over sea on the nearest mainland airfield. Because, as everybody knows or can check in multiple sources - there is no refuelling possibility at Langeoog airfield
Looks very much of another case of a misled "believer" ! A fuelgauge is never as accurate as some might believe it is.
He should have refuelled either after that short Dortmund - Arnsberg flight before leaving for EDWL, or after the short hop over sea on the nearest mainland airfield. Because, as everybody knows or can check in multiple sources - there is no refuelling possibility at Langeoog airfield
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The 7 passengers had been on holiday @ Langeoog. They got there by car, but since the driver did not feel fit to drive back home, the family booked the Piper @ Dortmund to firstly bring a driver from Arnsberg to the island and secondly get them back home. How much of their baggage, if any, was loaded into the Saratoga @ Langeoog is yet unknown. As little as we know about the pilotīs fuel planning.
Fact is the tank wasnīt full @ Dortmund and had not been refilled until the incident.
Annex14:
"A fuelgauge is never as accurate as some might believe it is"
Agree, but would you take off in a chartered aircraft without having visually checked the fuel level in the tanks before?
Fact is the tank wasnīt full @ Dortmund and had not been refilled until the incident.
Annex14:
"A fuelgauge is never as accurate as some might believe it is"
Agree, but would you take off in a chartered aircraft without having visually checked the fuel level in the tanks before?
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The answer as you will expect is logically NO !
Fact is the tank wasnīt full @ Dortmund and had not been refilled until the incident.
As for the first half sentence where comes that information from. Havenīt found it neither posted in any entry in this thread nor in any of the news links posted !!
As I have written already I assume as well a possibility like this to have happened, but I am not bold enough to state that as a fact.
Instead I am at this point prefer to wait for the findings of the AAIB (BFU), they do the accident investigation
Fact is the tank wasnīt full @ Dortmund and had not been refilled until the incident.
As for the first half sentence where comes that information from. Havenīt found it neither posted in any entry in this thread nor in any of the news links posted !!
As I have written already I assume as well a possibility like this to have happened, but I am not bold enough to state that as a fact.
Instead I am at this point prefer to wait for the findings of the AAIB (BFU), they do the accident investigation
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May be somewhat strange one thinks. But RWY length at EDWL - the island point of departure - is a mere 600 meter or 2000 ft. Guess there are not too many twins available to make it out of such an airfield with a good load on board.