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LAPL and N-Reg?

Old 20th Aug 2013, 14:13
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LAPL and N-Reg?

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but I've been unable to find a definitive response.
Is it possible to fly an N-reg aircraft in the UK (day VFR of course) with an EASA LAPL?
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Old 20th Aug 2013, 14:30
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Good question.

CFR 14 part 61:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(a) Pilot certificate. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person—

(1) Has a pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a pilot license issued by that country may be used; and

[...]

(c) Medical certificate. (1) A person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft only if that person holds the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the FAA, that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft. Paragraph (c)(2) of this section provides certain exceptions to the requirement to hold a medical certificate.

(2) A person is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (c)(1) of this section if that person—

[...]

(x) Is operating an aircraft within a foreign country using a pilot license issued by that country and possesses evidence of current medical qualification for that license; or
At a first glance, there doesn't appear to be a limitation on what foreign licences are acceptable, or what type of operations are prohibited. However, FAR 61 is a pretty large document and my quick scan may have missed something.

If there's anything more, it should be in here:

eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations
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Old 20th Aug 2013, 15:09
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The LAPL is not an ICAO licence. The wording of the regs is to allow the use of another ICAO licence outside of the US.

So the answer is no as I understand it.
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Old 20th Aug 2013, 15:46
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This is the same question as the NPPL (both LAPL and NPPL are sub-ICAO). I'm not sure if there was ever an official conclusion from the FAA about the NPPL, and so the general advice (from the NPPL website) was that it hadn't been allowed.
However I normally go on the basis that if it doesn't say no, nothing stops you

They did say that they accepted the non-ICAO IMC Rating in the UK as an equivalent to an IR (License Privileges, Aircraft Registers, Etc) so I suggest that they could use the same principle for this.
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Old 20th Aug 2013, 15:47
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Bose-X, do you have a reference for that? I searched the whole part 61 text and the only time where "ICAO" is mentioned in this context is in 61.75, which deals with an FAA PPL based on a foreign PPL or higher.

I don't see any reference to "ICAO" in relation to the exception as specified in 61.3.

I fully agree that such a limitation would make sense, though. I just can't see it in the text.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 10:27
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go for it......

The people behind the NPPL are adamant that the NPPL does not allow you to fly N reg. However, I impression I get is that the NPPL people are not legally qualified and certainly not experts on the FARs.

I know many people who have flown N reg on NPPL and have been ramp checked. No problem.

This is one of the anomalies of flying N reg. No-one knows all the answers and there are as many opinions about flying N reg IFR with an IMC rating in UK as there people flying N reg aircraft with an IMC. Same applies to the NPPL. Until it is tested in the courts, who knows??

I think you can.

(Head down waiting for the onslaught from the NPPL experts.......)
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 11:09
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I would consider myself knowledgeable on NPPL and FAA matters. I believe that you can operate an N-reg using a NPPL or LAPL in the UK. I did ask for the NPPL website to be amended some time ago.

ifitaint...

Last edited by ifitaintboeing; 21st Aug 2013 at 11:12.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 11:21
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Where is this NPPL website?

The authority issuing the NPPL has the power to restrict it as they wish.

They could limit it to G-regs. If they haven't then it is valid for any reg unless thus banned by the State of Registry.

They could require the pilot to wear pink underpants while flying, etc.

But they have no authority for interpreting the FAA regs. I don't see anything in 61.3 which states the pilot papers have to be ICAO compliant. Also the FAA reply re the IMCR (that URL above is from my website) was a response to a clearly stated question and it was affirmative.

Obviously it's possible to get a different reply from some other FAA employee, but this happens with the CAA too, and much more so nowadays than a few years ago. I know somebody who sold a G-reg plane when the CAA told him he cannot fly it on an FAA PPL (which at the time was bollox) and we was not happy when I told him about the ANO article permitting it.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 11:44
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Where is this NPPL website?
NPPL Home Page


Q Can I fly my 'N' registered aircraft on my NPPL?
A No. This is because the NPPL is a sub-ICAO licence, and the usual reciprocity with the USA and other ICAO contracting states does not apply. As the holder of a UK NPPL, you may only fly in UK airspace in a UK registered aircraft.
I believe this is based on their interpretation of the FARs.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 12:03
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No, I believe it is based on there interpretation of the limits of the NPPL. I am however 99% certain it is restricted to UK registered aircraft.

I am on holiday at the moment so don't have the Internet access to look it up. Beagle may be along in a bit to confirm or deny.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 12:50
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It's been a while since this was discussed, but if I recall correctly, the problem was down to acceptance of the Medical Declaration.

Anyway, as clearly stated in CAP 804:

The UK National Private Pilots Licence (NPPL) is a licence issued by the CAA that is valid in UK airspace for the piloting of UK registered aircraft only.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 14:33
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The NPPL website states here that you can fly to Ireland as-is, and to France with a proper medical. And to a load of other places.

So that phrase in CAP804 must be wrong. Clearly there is no territorial restriction, and probably the restriction on G-reg is equally somebody's invention.

In the ANO (cap393.pdf) the word "NPPL" appears only on page 289 and none of this is mentioned there.

CAP804 is not law anyway - it's a set of guidance notes.

Last edited by peterh337; 21st Aug 2013 at 14:33.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 15:12
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So how is this enforced? How can / does the FAA enforce its rules in N-reg aircraft when you are in the UK?
The two times I can think of that this is going to come to a head is if:

1. You have an accident and the insurance company refuses to pay out. Therefore you eventually end up in court (lets say in the UK). Would that mean that a UK court would then have to create its own interpretation of the FARs?

2. You are ramp checked, or the CAA decide to prosecute you for lying without an appropriate licence. Again - this would presumably end up in a UK court?

Would the FAA prosecute you in the US for flying N-Reg in the UK (with a questionable licence)?
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 15:42
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Quote:
The UK National Private Pilots Licence (NPPL) is a licence issued by the CAA that is valid in UK airspace for the piloting of UK registered aircraft only.
That's not what it says in the ANO

ifitaint...
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 16:56
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The FAA says that "if you have a licence to fly the aeroplane in your country's airspace, then you can fly an N reg in your country's airspace without holding an FAA PPL"...or words to that effect. It does not mention anything about ICAO compliant or anything that I can see.

Unless the LAPL specifically prohibits flying anything other than a G registered aeroplane, then as far as it goes, you are legal....Just as pointed out earlier, the IMCr can be used in an N registered aeroplane in the UK, the IMCr being sub-ICAO.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 17:02
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Which, ifitainta787itprobablywontcatchfire , is due to an error made by the ANO drafter at the CAA!

NPPL P&SC agree the policy with the CAA, then it is up to the CAA to sort the ANO.....

The NPPL is issued with territorial restrictions; however, certain EU Member States have agreed to its use with appropriate criteria.

Anyway, now that this ANO NPPL error has been highlighted, perhaps I should raise it with the CAA.

However, whether a LAPL is acceptable for flying 3rd country aircraft is for EASA to decide.

Last edited by BEagle; 21st Aug 2013 at 17:13.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 17:45
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However, whether a LAPL is acceptable for flying 3rd country aircraft is for EASA to decide.
EASA Basic Regulation for EASA aircraft, ANO for non-EASA aircraft

ifitaint...

Last edited by ifitaintboeing; 21st Aug 2013 at 17:46.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 18:50
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3rd country aircraft, e.g. C172 and PA28, are still 'EASA aircraft', no matter which their state of registry.....

Ismell787smoke...

Last edited by BEagle; 21st Aug 2013 at 18:51.
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 19:36
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3rd country aircraft, e.g. C172 and PA28, are still 'EASA aircraft', no matter which their state of registry.....
Interesting. How about a Globe Swift, Stinson 108, Commonwealth Skyranger, Luscombe 8A etc, with no EASA type certificate, but all operating on ICAO compliant standard category airworthiness certificates and as such legally usable (and used for) paid flight training and anything else the C172 or PA28 are used for?
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Old 21st Aug 2013, 19:38
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Which brings us right back to Doh! Or rather NO......
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