Expect the unexpected?
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Expect the unexpected?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...OJf0XsLw#at=19
Nice job in getting a go around at the very last second, but personally I think he could have done a better job at expecting to go around a bit earlier rather than deciding to carry on....
Nice job in getting a go around at the very last second, but personally I think he could have done a better job at expecting to go around a bit earlier rather than deciding to carry on....
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There are some real idiots about! I would be interested to hear what happened after this, what the other pilot said, what, if any, action was taken. Was there ATC at this airport? If so, what instructions had been given? Clear to land (guy filming)? Hold before active runway (a/c on the ground)?
Agree the landing pilot could have decided earlier to go around, but we are only talking a couple of seconds or so.
In the end it was a well executed go around that prevented a certain accident. Criticising the landing pilot for a couple of seconds delay is, in my view, wrong. We should concentrate on the muppet who entered the runway!
Agree the landing pilot could have decided earlier to go around, but we are only talking a couple of seconds or so.
In the end it was a well executed go around that prevented a certain accident. Criticising the landing pilot for a couple of seconds delay is, in my view, wrong. We should concentrate on the muppet who entered the runway!
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I think he could have done a better job at expecting to go around a bit earlier
From the information available I couldn't seen anything to criticise that pilot for at all; in fact it was probably the best and only action to take to avoid an otherwise nasty probable contact. Well done!
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What a magnificent set of runways! and used for spam can training....
An instruction to hold short of a runway that is forgotten, an instructor so busy that he forgets to do a proper lookout, an antique training aircraft that is so poorly fenestrated that most of the view is obscured by doorposts and instrument panels....
And the mindset that if you have ATC looking out for you and telling you what to do you can safely turn off your brain.....
How on earth do we manage at a plain old grass gliding club when the thermals quit and all the gliders come down more or less at the same time without running into each other on the ground????
The pilots are trained to LOOK OUT LOOK OUT LOOK OUT! The gliders are constructed to ensure excellent all round viz. And going around is not an option so you better get it right the first time....
An instruction to hold short of a runway that is forgotten, an instructor so busy that he forgets to do a proper lookout, an antique training aircraft that is so poorly fenestrated that most of the view is obscured by doorposts and instrument panels....
And the mindset that if you have ATC looking out for you and telling you what to do you can safely turn off your brain.....
How on earth do we manage at a plain old grass gliding club when the thermals quit and all the gliders come down more or less at the same time without running into each other on the ground????
The pilots are trained to LOOK OUT LOOK OUT LOOK OUT! The gliders are constructed to ensure excellent all round viz. And going around is not an option so you better get it right the first time....
We all know Mary that you glider pilots are eagle-eyed sky gods (you've told us on here often enough 
) but the fact is us SEP pilots are mere humans and prone to make human errors. Clearly, the pilot of the infringing aircraft made such an error - the report mentions distraction. A common human failing.
Thankfully on this occasion the landing pilot had sufficient presence of mind to make effective avoiding action, and he should be commended for it
) but the fact is us SEP pilots are mere humans and prone to make human errors. Clearly, the pilot of the infringing aircraft made such an error - the report mentions distraction. A common human failing.Thankfully on this occasion the landing pilot had sufficient presence of mind to make effective avoiding action, and he should be commended for it
Last edited by Mariner9; 16th Aug 2013 at 08:37.
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Hello Mariner 9! Delighted to know you....at a distance so to speak.
Glider pilots are far from eagle-eyed sky gods, but we do try to instill in training a strong sense of self preservation. Advantage of glider construction gives much better viz, absolutely necessary in sharing thermals. And we travel in swarms, like gnats, so usually impossible for ATC to distinguish or direct. As far as gliders having a right of way, we know all too well that we may not have been observed by the opposing aircraft.
But I fly (or used to fly before the old medical got folded up for good) spam cans as well. And will share with you the time I arrived at Ann Arbor Michigan Municipal Airport after flying from New Jersey....and quite tired, also no headset, trying to understand ATC in an overhead speaker with all that engine noise! Having landed at Ann Arbor, a controlled airport, was informed that the apron for parking and fuel was on the other side. So I taxied down to the end, had a jolly good look at the aircraft on approach, and I crossed over and shut down. Fuel chap says "Tower wants you to phone them right away!"
Oops. Says ATC," you crossed an active runway without permission!"
Said I," very sorry, very sorry, my misunderstanding. But I did have a jolly good lookout!"
After explaining the difficulty a tired pilot has understanding the overhead speaker after 3 hours airborne, I was forgiven and sent on my way.
Still think I was right to have a jolly good lookout before crossing, even if I had been mistaken to think ATC said to cross the active.
Glider pilots are far from eagle-eyed sky gods, but we do try to instill in training a strong sense of self preservation. Advantage of glider construction gives much better viz, absolutely necessary in sharing thermals. And we travel in swarms, like gnats, so usually impossible for ATC to distinguish or direct. As far as gliders having a right of way, we know all too well that we may not have been observed by the opposing aircraft.
But I fly (or used to fly before the old medical got folded up for good) spam cans as well. And will share with you the time I arrived at Ann Arbor Michigan Municipal Airport after flying from New Jersey....and quite tired, also no headset, trying to understand ATC in an overhead speaker with all that engine noise! Having landed at Ann Arbor, a controlled airport, was informed that the apron for parking and fuel was on the other side. So I taxied down to the end, had a jolly good look at the aircraft on approach, and I crossed over and shut down. Fuel chap says "Tower wants you to phone them right away!"
Oops. Says ATC," you crossed an active runway without permission!"
Said I," very sorry, very sorry, my misunderstanding. But I did have a jolly good lookout!"
After explaining the difficulty a tired pilot has understanding the overhead speaker after 3 hours airborne, I was forgiven and sent on my way.
Still think I was right to have a jolly good lookout before crossing, even if I had been mistaken to think ATC said to cross the active.
It sounds as if the incursion occurred not because the instructor wasn't looking out as he entered the runway, but because he was distracted and didn't realise he was entering the runway. That's a significantly different issue.
Or maybe the answer is that you don't?
Here's an LAA document about aircraft collisions:
http://www.lightaircraftassociation....raft%20V10.doc
I quote:
Of the 178 aircraft involved, 72 were powered aircraft, 6 were glider tugs, 96 were gliders, and 4 were military. The military aircraft were 2 Tornados, 1 Tucano and 1 A-10
And relating to gliders specifically:
84 collided with other gliders as follows:
How on earth do we manage at a plain old grass gliding club when the thermals quit and all the gliders come down more or less at the same time without running into each other on the ground????
Here's an LAA document about aircraft collisions:
http://www.lightaircraftassociation....raft%20V10.doc
I quote:
Of the 178 aircraft involved, 72 were powered aircraft, 6 were glider tugs, 96 were gliders, and 4 were military. The military aircraft were 2 Tornados, 1 Tucano and 1 A-10
And relating to gliders specifically:
84 collided with other gliders as follows:
- 16 on launch, landing, departure of approach
- 34 in local thermal
- 10 on a local ridge
- 10 near the launch site
- 14 in cross country thermal
Last edited by abgd; 16th Aug 2013 at 16:04.
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Thank you, agbd, for that interesting reference. I tried to understand it, though it seems that apples are being compared with oranges.....gliders mainly collide with other gliders (that sounds about right). But this survey which covers collisions over a period of 37 years, doesn't say which were fatal collisions.
It is possible to have a very respectable crash in a glider, writing it off, and still walk away. It is also true that we fly wearing parachutes, which in case of a midair can come in handy. I really don't want to have any sort of crash in a light aircraft carrying any quantity of fuel whatsoever.
It is far from clear whether this study includes gliders bumping into other gliders on landing. We did have at our club a truly interesting arrival when a solo pilot landed the club twoseater on top of TWO other gliders, both were unoccupied at the time. And a famous former chairman managed to land his glider on a boat that was being towed by a landrover, how do you classify that one? And famously, a pilot from another club landed their two-seater in the wrong place and was plowed into by the cable retrieve vehicle; didn't have time to stop....the pilot's remark clearly heard by the observers was "O no, not again!"
But usually we do manage to land with sufficient self-separation to avoid damage.
It is possible to have a very respectable crash in a glider, writing it off, and still walk away. It is also true that we fly wearing parachutes, which in case of a midair can come in handy. I really don't want to have any sort of crash in a light aircraft carrying any quantity of fuel whatsoever.
It is far from clear whether this study includes gliders bumping into other gliders on landing. We did have at our club a truly interesting arrival when a solo pilot landed the club twoseater on top of TWO other gliders, both were unoccupied at the time. And a famous former chairman managed to land his glider on a boat that was being towed by a landrover, how do you classify that one? And famously, a pilot from another club landed their two-seater in the wrong place and was plowed into by the cable retrieve vehicle; didn't have time to stop....the pilot's remark clearly heard by the observers was "O no, not again!"
But usually we do manage to land with sufficient self-separation to avoid damage.
I'm slightly confused. Your first post seemed to be implying that glider pilots manage OK despite flying in a less structured environment than powered pilots, because of their superior lookout skills. Your last post seemed to be admitting that actually glider pilots fly into things all the time, but are lucky because these accidents are less likely to be fatal.
My own feeling is that gliders and powered aircraft are so different and fly under such different conditions, that it's not really an useful conversation. From the overall safety perspective I'd be equally happy flying either - though given the choice I've enjoyed hang-gliding more than any other form of flying that I've done.
My own feeling is that gliders and powered aircraft are so different and fly under such different conditions, that it's not really an useful conversation. From the overall safety perspective I'd be equally happy flying either - though given the choice I've enjoyed hang-gliding more than any other form of flying that I've done.
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I think also that glider pilots have superior look out in general because they have superior vis. Looking around maybe 270 degrees in a glider with almost clear vertical vis from zenith to ground is a lot easier than a spam can. In fact the view is very limited from the average spammy.
I say superior look out in general because unless you're going to make use of the superior vis it may as well not be there. I've had more close calls in gliders with other gliders than in spammies. Glider pilots are not immune from poor lookout, in fact I would say that spam drivers try that bit extra because the lookout is so limited.
I say superior look out in general because unless you're going to make use of the superior vis it may as well not be there. I've had more close calls in gliders with other gliders than in spammies. Glider pilots are not immune from poor lookout, in fact I would say that spam drivers try that bit extra because the lookout is so limited.
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Going back to the original incident, the runway incursion and the last minute leap into the air by the landing aircraft....
Don't you sometimes wish you had a lever in your car that could leap over the motorway jams????
Does anyone else remember those old movie cartoons that had a black cat driving just such a car?
Don't you sometimes wish you had a lever in your car that could leap over the motorway jams????
Does anyone else remember those old movie cartoons that had a black cat driving just such a car?
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I think the balked landing was pretty well done. The only slight criticism might be that the aircraft initially drifted to the left of 17R at an airport where contra-circuit ops may have been occurring. However, the drift looked to be corrected well on climb-out. Hard to excuse the infringing aircraft. YMMB is a major training and GA airport and, even putting neglected or forgotten clearances aside, it's hard to fathom how anyone would taxi there without having the eyeballs fixed permanently outside the cockpit. But we've all been distracted at some points in our flying careers and it's great that this turned out well.
A comment is that the ATSB report (referenced earlier) is superficial in the extreme - a trend we are having to live with here is Australia. No mention of whether there were in fact contra-circuit ops, or whether the two aircraft were on different tower frequencies during the circuit and approach. Most likely they were and, while necessary for sane communications at busy GA fields, the frequency separation does reduce one's awareness of aircraft in the opposite circuit.
A comment is that the ATSB report (referenced earlier) is superficial in the extreme - a trend we are having to live with here is Australia. No mention of whether there were in fact contra-circuit ops, or whether the two aircraft were on different tower frequencies during the circuit and approach. Most likely they were and, while necessary for sane communications at busy GA fields, the frequency separation does reduce one's awareness of aircraft in the opposite circuit.
