I screwed up...I infringed!
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I screwed up...I infringed!
Just a few words to highlight my recent ****up for the benefit of others.
I recently cut the NW corner of the EGBB CTA whilst flying over Lichfield...I was legal until I decided to climb a few miles too early and bust the floor by 200 feet or so. Did not know until I landed back and had the "please call the watch controller message". I immediately did so and apologised profusely but what did I learn?
Safe flying
I recently cut the NW corner of the EGBB CTA whilst flying over Lichfield...I was legal until I decided to climb a few miles too early and bust the floor by 200 feet or so. Did not know until I landed back and had the "please call the watch controller message". I immediately did so and apologised profusely but what did I learn?
- Always know where you are...no really know where you are!
- Think before you act...can I climb here...can I turn here?
- At least be on the same QNH...I wasn't ...use the ATIS if flying the vicinity of controlled airspace
- Be on the correct frequency...I was not...I should have made the effort to call...be identified...and shared my plans
- Finally if you do screw up and you know it...fess up preferably via RT...or at the very least via phone as soon as practicable
Safe flying
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I've been there before. Started a descent, got distracted and levelled off and went about a mile into the zone 200ft too high. Soon realised my mistake and got rid of 400ft as quickly as I could. Didn't receive any messages but phoned the watch manager on the ground and apologised. They were fine about it but could have caused a few problems. Now I always make sure I'm speaking to someone or using a listening squawk if available.
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That's why you should always call to transition the airspace several miles from the boundary.
If denied stay very clear laterally or go over the top if possible.
If denied stay very clear laterally or go over the top if possible.
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 16th Aug 2013 at 14:38.
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Thanks for sharing, very honest! Had a bit of a moment the other day, didn't bust anything but I slowly looked to the gentleman on my right hand side and the silence was the loudest thing I've ever heard. En route LFAT to Cambridge and routing around the Stansted Zone under the London TMA for the first time, had the appropriate listening squawk displayed and monitoring the correct freq, but heard the radar controller vectoring an aircraft away due to an unknown contact in the area, it was at that point my blood ran cold, even though I knew we were ok, I still had that few seconds cross checking everything with my partner in crime and we decided it was some other aircraft. I'm sure you won't make the same mistake again my friend.
Cheers, Jim
Cheers, Jim
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I write the max altitude for each leg on my plog (you could write it on the chart; I don't know what you'd do if using only a fondleslab). That doesn't mean I don't go above that level, but it does mean that if I'm thinking of going above it I first check carefully where I am.
And yes I have bust airspace whilst being too high, but not since I started using this system.
And yes I have bust airspace whilst being too high, but not since I started using this system.
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Just out of interest, are the borders of CAS really as potentially "trespassers-will-be-shot-immediately" in practice as these posts make it sound? Not to downplay airspace infringements in any way, but minor infringements as those described (100-200 ft too high and barely "on the wrong side") have happened to me at least twice so far(*) and a short reminder on the R/T (followed by conscience-stricken and immediate compliance of course) was all there was to it.
(*) With a potential third one recently, but either I was those 1-2 miles farther away or the self-correction was immediate enough for no one to notice and/or take any action; at least there was no R/T call by FIS (with who I am always in contact when leaving the aerodrome vicinity, not being so would indeed make me a lot more apprehensive of any potential infringement).
(*) With a potential third one recently, but either I was those 1-2 miles farther away or the self-correction was immediate enough for no one to notice and/or take any action; at least there was no R/T call by FIS (with who I am always in contact when leaving the aerodrome vicinity, not being so would indeed make me a lot more apprehensive of any potential infringement).
Last edited by Armchairflyer; 16th Aug 2013 at 17:35. Reason: Syntax error corrected (one at least)
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Originally Posted by Armchairflyer
Just out of interest, are the borders of CAS really as potentially "trespassers-will-be-shot-immediately" in practice as these posts make it sound? Not to downplay airspace infringements in any way, but minor infringements as those described (100-200 ft too high and barely "on the wrong side") have happened to me at least twice so far(*) and a short reminder on the R/T (followed by conscience-stricken and immediate compliance of course) was all there was to it.
If it's quiet and you infringe by 200', if you happen to be lucky enough to have an understanding controller on the other end of the RT then you may get away with a polite warning.
If on the other hand, you infringe by 200' and we happen to be vectoring IFR traffic over the top of you, 1000' above the base, then after the avoiding action has been given, the witch hunt (aka tracing action) will begin.
Either way we are required, as controllers, to report all CAS infringements no matter how small.
Last edited by Glamdring; 16th Aug 2013 at 19:54.
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That probably played a role in those infringements of mine having no major consequences (besides all controllers and FIS staff involved obviously not out for a witch hunt): I was never even halfway close to any incoming traffic and never a "stranger" to ATC. Maybe the regulations on pursuing and reporting all infringements no matter how small and inconsequential are different in our neck of the woods, too.
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The thing that you must remember when you feel that a controller is being overly-harsh is that it your licence to fly that you are risking, but it is our licence to work, earn and stay out of a court room that is at risk
Primarily we "witch hunt" to educate, not to chastise
Primarily we "witch hunt" to educate, not to chastise
Last edited by Glamdring; 16th Aug 2013 at 20:08.
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Hope I didn't give the impression of ever having been treated "too harshly" by a controller (or in my case FIS guy/gal). Quite the reverse, always felt and feel well "looked after", and during one of the abovementioned mishaps, the approach controller apparently even phoned my local aerodrome (correctly guessing by my transponder code and position) and made them tell me on the R/T to please descend somewhat or buzz off. So definitely no "chastising witch-hunt"-mentality.
While we're at it: what are the potential consequences of such "minor" CAS infringements (beyond apologising on the R/T or by phone afterwards)?
While we're at it: what are the potential consequences of such "minor" CAS infringements (beyond apologising on the R/T or by phone afterwards)?
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Sorry Piperboy, I should have explained a bit further, I meant transponding 0013, which will hopefully have been displayed on the radar controllers station.
Cheers, Jim
Cheers, Jim
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Hi d192049d,
Don't beat yourself up too much about it. There are those that have and those that will. Learn from it, and you'll hopefully never to it again.
Were you using a GPS of any sort? I take it not, or you'd have gotten a warning.
If not, you should have a look here
UK AirspaceAVOID
This, NATS approved, free app which runs on iPhone/iPad & Android would have given you a warning before you entered controlled airspace, giving you the opportunity to avoid the bust.
dp
Don't beat yourself up too much about it. There are those that have and those that will. Learn from it, and you'll hopefully never to it again.
Were you using a GPS of any sort? I take it not, or you'd have gotten a warning.
If not, you should have a look here
UK AirspaceAVOID
This, NATS approved, free app which runs on iPhone/iPad & Android would have given you a warning before you entered controlled airspace, giving you the opportunity to avoid the bust.
dp
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Jim
Why is it called a listening squawk?, does that mean you were not assigned that code but is a zone/CAS specific code that lets them know you are listening to them even though you are not receiving a service?
Update: sorry ignore my post, I just googled it, had never heard of this before, thanks
Sorry Piperboy, I should have explained a bit further, I meant transponding 0013, which will hopefully have been displayed on the radar controllers station
Update: sorry ignore my post, I just googled it, had never heard of this before, thanks
Last edited by piperboy84; 16th Aug 2013 at 22:23.
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Just out of interest, are the borders of CAS really as potentially "trespassers-will-be-shot-immediately" in practice as these posts make it sound? Not to downplay airspace infringements in any way, but minor infringements as those described (100-200 ft too high and barely "on the wrong side") have happened to me at least twice so far(*) and a short reminder on the R/T (followed by conscience-stricken and immediate compliance of course) was all there was to it.
So if someone pops up to 2,700ft in error just to the west of White Waltham, where the base is 2,500ft, they may find an A380 300ft above them.
Not recommended.
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piper.
Some areas of the UK they have a squawk which means that it says you are listening to a certain frequency.
You just dial the freq in and the code and then don't say anything on it. If anyone wants to talk to you they get the controller on that frequency to identify you and then give you instructions/information to sort things out.
As you normally don't do anything but listen its called a listening squawk.
We have a better thing in Scotland Scottish info which not only you can listen to but you can speak to as well. And hear the chirpy tones of OUR friends in Prestwick.
Some areas of the UK they have a squawk which means that it says you are listening to a certain frequency.
You just dial the freq in and the code and then don't say anything on it. If anyone wants to talk to you they get the controller on that frequency to identify you and then give you instructions/information to sort things out.
As you normally don't do anything but listen its called a listening squawk.
We have a better thing in Scotland Scottish info which not only you can listen to but you can speak to as well. And hear the chirpy tones of OUR friends in Prestwick.