IR(R) on EASA license

[85mel]

you may remember that my son's club seemed confused about whether this was possible. Anyway - he did his PPL skills test in November, got an EASA license on his 17th birthday in January and did the IMC training in July. He has duly received back his EASA license updated with the IR(R) rating on it. SO those who said it was possible were right! But perhaps only til April!
Thanks!

[banditb6]

Do you know if this will contain all the priveleges of the IMC rating then?
This is different from the e IR its all very confusing and unclear as to what they are doing!

[BEagle]

85mel - glad your son was able to include an IR(R) on his licence!

Do you know if this will contain all the priveleges of the IMC rating then?
This is different from the e IR its all very confusing and unclear as to what they are doing!

Have you been on Mars for the last couple of years, or what? The IR(R) is identical in ALL respects - privileges, limitations, revalidation and renewal requirements - to the IMC Rating.

The EIR does not yet exist; all it might do is to add IFR cruising privileges to a VFR licence. It does not include any IFR approach privileges of any kind whatsoever and is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN ALL RESPECTS to the IMC Rating.....

[banditb6]

No I only started flying this year! I am fully aware that the enroute IR rating does not yet exist and is only for EN-ROUTE!!! but as the IMC rating can not be added to a part FCL licence I was wondering what would actually appear on the licence, when said rating changes in April next year.

I'm sorry that my inferior mind is unable to wrestle with all the bollock$ of the CAA documentation on the matter and try to get a straight forward answer.

Another helpful reply from a PPRuNe user!

[Pom pom]

Bandit, you're not completely new to the forum so must be aware of its search facility. Try using it, in the first instance, to find the answers you're looking for. It would also be wise to check out BEagle's credentials (both flying and with regards to EASA policy making) before being a smart alec.

[thing]

In Bandit's defence it sounds as if his instructors don't have a grip on the legislation either otherwise they would have put him straight.

I think that a lot of the confusion lies in thinking of the IMCr and IR(R) as separate things, they are exactly the same but it's now called something else. It said IMC on my old JAR license, it says IR(R) on my EASA one, that's the only difference.

[BEagle]

banditb6, I suggest you download and read http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804Jan2013.pdf .

...but as the IMC rating can not be added to a part FCL licence I was wondering what would actually appear on the licence, when said rating changes in April next year.

'Said rating' does not change in April next year. Any 'IMC Rating' training and testing completed before next April will result in the licence holder being granted an IR(R). It is CAA Board Policy that the IR(R) will continue for new issues after then, but at present no legislative means exists to facilitate this.

[85mel]

IR(R) same as IMC?

As I understand it, you could use the IMC in Europe, but the IR(R) is only valid in the UK and a few agreed exceptions (Isle of Man and Channel Islands I think but don't rely on this - check for yourself if applicable!)

[thing]

IMCr was always a UK only rating.

[riverrock83]

Originally Posted by thing

IMCr was always a UK only rating.

Indeed. The only difference it made, outside the UK, was that UK JAR licences had a VFR "In sight of the surface" restriction on them. If you did the IMC rating that "In sight of the surface" restriction was removed so you could go "VFR on top".

EASA PPLs don't have that restriction.

[banditb6]

Well perhaps rather than being so short with the response, if his credentials are all you say they are then maybe a little more guidance would be helpful, rather than the response I was given, yes I know how to use the search button also but was not able to find what I was looking for!

This is a Public forum and open to all free and reasonable comments, so what impact would my being a smart alec have on anything?

The rating changes from IMC to IR (r), so IMC no longer exists! Making this change of term unclear to people such as myself, whom also do not have any solid information from the local flying schools or the CAA documents?!

Same old, same old

[Pom pom]

I can assure you bandit that BEagle's credentials are second to none and he tirelessly works in Europe to advise and persuade the EASA bureaucrats on many issues - you probably wouldn't have an IMCr/IR(r) to talk about if it wasn't for him! The least you can do is carry out some research, show some respect and try to learn. The information is all out there. We all spend time and effort finding it, digesting it and discussing it. Unless the relevant sources of information have been specifically denied to you, could I suggest you just knuckle under, do the work and contribute something useful!

PS I forgot to mention that BEagle has more hours than you or I have had hot dinners, lots of them flying very fast things for Her Majesty.

[BillieBob]

The rating changes from IMC to IR (r), so IMC no longer exists!

Not true! The IMC rating may be entered into an EASA licence as an IR(R) but that doesn't stop it being an IMC rating. It is still entered as such into a UK national PPL and, given the current moves to permit flight under IFR in UK Annex II aircraft, may long continue to be so.

How does the old saying go? When you find yourself in a hole.......

[pipertommy]

Are we likely to see a push to open Europe up to IR (r) holders ?

[wb9999]

Are we likely to see a push to open Europe up to IR (r) holders ?

Why, when a full IR is going to be much more accessible to PPL holders?

[BEagle]

An IR(R) holder who has gained 15 hrs instrument flight time as PIC on aeroplanes (not simply 'IFR time'), will probably also have flown 15 hrs instrument flight instruction time for the IR(R).

All he/she then has to do, in order to convert to a full C-bM IR, is to:

• Pass the C-bM IR theoretical knowledge exams
• Fly an additional 10 hrs instrument flight instruction time at an ATO
• Pass the IR Skill Test

Other EASA Member States are quite at liberty to invent their own IR(R) under Art4(8) of the Aircrew Regulation. Who knows - if that idea took off then perhaps a pan-EASA Member State IR(R) might become available...

[Level Attitude]

An IR(R) holder who has gained 15 hrs instrument flight time as PIC on aeroplanes (not simply 'IFR time'), will also have flown 15 hrs instrument flight instruction time for the IR(R).

No, not necessarily and, in my opinion, actually rather unlikely.
An IMC/IR(R) course requires a minimum of 15 Hours of Instruction, of which a minimum of 10 Hours must be Instrument Flight Time (flight by sole reference to instruments in old parlance).

So quite possible for an IR(R) holder to only have 10 Hours Instrument Flight time under Instruction during their IR(R) course.

[slw29]

I seem to remember that there was a condition that the IR(R) training can only be put towards the new EASA IR ratings if it has been given by an instructor qualified to teach the full instrument rating - in order to instruct the IR(R) you only need to be a flight instructor with an IR(R), I believe (well, I was told by my club when I did my IR(R)!). So it might not necessarily count.
Can anyone clarify this?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

An IR(R) holder who has gained 15 hrs instrument flight time as PIC on aeroplanes (not simply 'IFR time')

How do you do that then? - I have never bothered to log the 15 seconds or so that it takes to go through a cloud, and I'd have to do a lot of that to add up to 15 hours!

[Eddie Seymour]

Pass the C-bM IR theoretical knowledge exams

Is there anything different on TK, Basically these are 7 exams.

I thought I'd read that the TK had also been reduced?

Regards