caernarfon and wind turbines
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caernarfon and wind turbines
Anyone experienced strange windshear here.
Coming into runway 25 yesterday, over the caravan site, quite variable wind, noticed the turbines facing out to sea and turning. Hit quite surging sort of turbulence, struggling to descend and slow down, had to do a goaround.
Quite suprised such large structures allowed on a licensed airfield.
Thought wake vortex might be like a jumbo climbing out.
Could this be a factor in a recent accident?
Coming into runway 25 yesterday, over the caravan site, quite variable wind, noticed the turbines facing out to sea and turning. Hit quite surging sort of turbulence, struggling to descend and slow down, had to do a goaround.
Quite suprised such large structures allowed on a licensed airfield.
Thought wake vortex might be like a jumbo climbing out.
Could this be a factor in a recent accident?
Last edited by BigEndBob; 18th Jul 2013 at 21:54.
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Dear BEB,
Please file an MoR about your experience.
Here at Strathaven, we have been fighting quite a few wind turbines (out of the 72 applications within three miles of the town!).
One proposer mentions: there has never been an MOR (Mandatory Occurance Report) filed about wake vortex and wind turbines. So there is no problem!
Of course, until now people have kept a more than sensible distance away from wind turbines, so that is why there hasn't been a problem. But now it appears there can be no choice - other than to avoid certain airfields.
I would like to file the first MOR myself, but then I might be open to accusations that I have "made it up" by the local developer. All I can say is: if the cloud is lowering and you are trying to get back to Strathaven from the west coast by following the A71, don't do it if there is a northerly component to the wind.
Please file an MoR about your experience.
Here at Strathaven, we have been fighting quite a few wind turbines (out of the 72 applications within three miles of the town!).
One proposer mentions: there has never been an MOR (Mandatory Occurance Report) filed about wake vortex and wind turbines. So there is no problem!
Of course, until now people have kept a more than sensible distance away from wind turbines, so that is why there hasn't been a problem. But now it appears there can be no choice - other than to avoid certain airfields.
I would like to file the first MOR myself, but then I might be open to accusations that I have "made it up" by the local developer. All I can say is: if the cloud is lowering and you are trying to get back to Strathaven from the west coast by following the A71, don't do it if there is a northerly component to the wind.
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Wasn't that the same runway where the accident occurred not long ago?
When were the turbines built? I flew in last September and didn't even notice them, however I landed on the reciprocal that day. Can't remember if there was anything on the Pooley's plate I used...
EDIT: Nope, just watched the video of my approach, they weren't there then.
When were the turbines built? I flew in last September and didn't even notice them, however I landed on the reciprocal that day. Can't remember if there was anything on the Pooley's plate I used...
EDIT: Nope, just watched the video of my approach, they weren't there then.
Last edited by mr_rodge; 19th Jul 2013 at 09:09.
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Caernarfon apparently does have a runway 25 now (used to be 26) and this was the runway onto which the aircraft which crashed in May was attempting to land - discussion here.
I am a low-hour C150 PPL (passed in April) flying out of Blackpool, but have used 20&02 (unlicensed due to the turbines) and 08 (now 07) at Caernarfon; I have not yet used 25/26 but am planning a visit next weekend (27th-28th), so depends what the wind is doing!
I did not experience any problems on either occasion but do not recall if the turbines were turning at the time. Data available online indicates that they were commissioned on 30th Nov 2012; they are in the 2013 Pooley's and mentioned on the website, indeed there is an indemnity form that must be filled in before visiting.
I am aware that this post may be read as defensive of the turbines; this is not my intention, which is only to give information, as I am not sure how many ppruners have visited Caernarfon since the turbines went up.
I am a low-hour C150 PPL (passed in April) flying out of Blackpool, but have used 20&02 (unlicensed due to the turbines) and 08 (now 07) at Caernarfon; I have not yet used 25/26 but am planning a visit next weekend (27th-28th), so depends what the wind is doing!
I did not experience any problems on either occasion but do not recall if the turbines were turning at the time. Data available online indicates that they were commissioned on 30th Nov 2012; they are in the 2013 Pooley's and mentioned on the website, indeed there is an indemnity form that must be filled in before visiting.
I am aware that this post may be read as defensive of the turbines; this is not my intention, which is only to give information, as I am not sure how many ppruners have visited Caernarfon since the turbines went up.
Last edited by JDA2012; 19th Jul 2013 at 17:13.
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Caernarfon can have some quite marked coastal effects.
A hot day and high pressure could mean that you enter the updraught and shear zone of the sea breeze on final approach to 25.
Long before the wind turbines appeared you could get much entertainment from watching successive arrivals trying to salvage their approaches.
I'm not saying that the turbines weren't a factor, but it may be interesting comparing the surface wind with the 1000', 3000' etc.
A hot day and high pressure could mean that you enter the updraught and shear zone of the sea breeze on final approach to 25.
Long before the wind turbines appeared you could get much entertainment from watching successive arrivals trying to salvage their approaches.
I'm not saying that the turbines weren't a factor, but it may be interesting comparing the surface wind with the 1000', 3000' etc.
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Hmmm.?..OP says flew in on 25?....I assume you mean 26. If the Wind turbines were facing out to sea I would have thought you were landing with a tailwind (?)and that 08 would have been the runway of choice?
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It's now runway 25, was down there a few weeks ago when they were blacking out the old numbers and painting the new numbers, it is all to do with the changing magnetic variation. They have also increased the displacement on runway 25.
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Hi when I first saw a picture of the turbines I thought 'Someone has done a nice job with Paintshop Pro'. But they are real !
Not only will turbulence be an issue, but what about someone doing a Go-around. Do you not have to side-step the runway in use to avoid conflict with any other aircraft, and then climb out parallel to the runway? Dodging a set of turbines might not be so simple in poor or patchy visibility.
Not only will turbulence be an issue, but what about someone doing a Go-around. Do you not have to side-step the runway in use to avoid conflict with any other aircraft, and then climb out parallel to the runway? Dodging a set of turbines might not be so simple in poor or patchy visibility.
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Thanks for all the links.
The wind was variable, but the turbines were facing about 270 degrees when landing on 25 and later veered towards the north so takeoff was on 02.
My thoughts were any wake vortex would blow across runway 25.
The wind was variable, but the turbines were facing about 270 degrees when landing on 25 and later veered towards the north so takeoff was on 02.
My thoughts were any wake vortex would blow across runway 25.
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25...ok, but if the wind turbines were facing out to sea he was still probably landing witha tailwind!
If the turbines were facing out to sea then they were facing in to the prevailing wind. Runway 25 "faces" the sea. I can't see how you reckon on a tailwind?
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I think you will find that it depends on the design of the turbine!!
Downwind turbines which are the type mostly used in the UK face downwind, whereas upwind turbines face into wind!!........
Downwind turbines which are the type mostly used in the UK face downwind, whereas upwind turbines face into wind!!........
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Downwind turbines which are the type mostly used in the UK face downwind, whereas upwind turbines face into wind!!........
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If people are relying on which way a wind turbine is facing to determine which runway to land on, or even which way the wind is blowing then they may come badly unstuck.
As I said it is down to the design of the turbine....some do indeed face the wind but equally and probably more wind turbines face away from the wind.
As I said it is down to the design of the turbine....some do indeed face the wind but equally and probably more wind turbines face away from the wind.
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I am hoping that ATC suggest a r/w based on anemometer and or windsock direction and not a wind turbine. Although it it doesn't take much imagination to assume the wind turbine is facing the wind, as all the other wind turbines i have ever seen.
It would be interesting to see research on the downwind effects of turbines, for instance release smoke behind the blades or from the tips and see where it goes.
I think if i designed turbines from a structural view point thought it would be better to push against its mounting rather than pull. And the blades are upwind of the mast.
It would be interesting to see research on the downwind effects of turbines, for instance release smoke behind the blades or from the tips and see where it goes.
I think if i designed turbines from a structural view point thought it would be better to push against its mounting rather than pull. And the blades are upwind of the mast.
Last edited by BigEndBob; 20th Jul 2013 at 19:02.
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In case it's of any use, I've found several planning documents relating to the turbines and associated substations.
These ones appear to be for the substations and LED beacons on the turbines, though they do show relevant boundaries etc.:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250418.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250420.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250422.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250423.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250424.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250425.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250426.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250428.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-255922.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-255923.pdf
Minutes giving the reference for the application (C10A/0507/17/LL) as well as discussion of pros/cons considered:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/ADNPwyllgo...%20meeting.pdf
The application itself:
Application Details | Search for a Planning Application | Track & Trace | Gwynedd Council (links to many other documents)
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/ADNPwyllgo...permission.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...645-230757.pdf
Interesting to note that the original plan was for 14 turbines all the way down the runway!
The turbines were originally to be 2-bladed WES30s, built by Wind Energy Solutions | Wind Energy Solutions :
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...645-220109.pdf
However, those actually installed are 3-bladed Vestas V27 225kW turbines; the change is noted within this document:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...9334.07.12.pdf
This type of turbine does face upwind:
http://www.windpioneer.co.uk/pdf/wp_..._V27_final.pdf
These ones appear to be for the substations and LED beacons on the turbines, though they do show relevant boundaries etc.:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250418.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250420.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250422.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250423.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250424.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250425.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250426.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-250428.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-255922.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...325-255923.pdf
Minutes giving the reference for the application (C10A/0507/17/LL) as well as discussion of pros/cons considered:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/ADNPwyllgo...%20meeting.pdf
The application itself:
Application Details | Search for a Planning Application | Track & Trace | Gwynedd Council (links to many other documents)
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/ADNPwyllgo...permission.pdf
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...645-230757.pdf
Interesting to note that the original plan was for 14 turbines all the way down the runway!
The turbines were originally to be 2-bladed WES30s, built by Wind Energy Solutions | Wind Energy Solutions :
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...645-220109.pdf
However, those actually installed are 3-bladed Vestas V27 225kW turbines; the change is noted within this document:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/im...9334.07.12.pdf
This type of turbine does face upwind:
http://www.windpioneer.co.uk/pdf/wp_..._V27_final.pdf
Last edited by JDA2012; 20th Jul 2013 at 21:49.
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I am hoping that ATC suggest a r/w based on anemometer and or windsock direction and not a wind turbine. Although it it doesn't take much imagination to assume the wind turbine is facing the wind, as all the other wind turbines i have ever seen.
It would be interesting to see research on the downwind effects of turbines, for instance release smoke behind the blades or from the tips and see where it goes.
http://ramblingsdc.net/Australia/Win...millTrails.jpg
Also have a look at
CAA Policy and Guidance on Wind Turbines
In particular see Chapter 2, section 8.
As others (including the CAA) suggest I urge you to file a MOR, see -
Accident and Occurrence Reporting | Aircraft | Operations and Safety
Last edited by baldwinm; 21st Jul 2013 at 11:31. Reason: Reference to specific section added
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'I have never seen a turbine that faces downwind'
Suggest you read below......scroll down to technical details
Aeolus Power (Wind-Energy) : Questions and answers
Suggest you read below......scroll down to technical details
Aeolus Power (Wind-Energy) : Questions and answers