How to use a Logbook for dummies

[Whopity]

But apparently for CAT only:

FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.

The UK CAA is the competent authority and Article 79 is the law regarding EASA logging by pilots holding a UK issued EASA licence. The covering letter issued with the latest amendment (1/2012) to the ANO states:

A personal flying log need no longer be kept in the form of a book.
Article 79

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by backpacker

So the suggested format is no longer "strongly recommended", as CAP804 states, but is mandatory.

Backpacker, you use the correct version of the AMC. But the meaning of the words is

shall --> must.

should --> strongly recommended.

so the CAA, while not verbatim, is correct. They just translate EU legalese into more understandable English.

Now to the other part

Details of flights flown for commercial air transport may be recorded in a computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned.

Since this explicitly allows an electronic logbook, it appears to imply that any electronic logbook needs such a permission to be compliant. But it actually allows that the electronic logbook is kept by the operator on behalf of the pilot, and hence absolves the pilot from having to keep his/her own log which would otherwise be required.

So the regs work the following way:

• FCL.050 - A pilot has to keep a log of his/her time, as determined by the CAA
• AMC to FCL.050 (a) and (b) - Lots of detail on what to log and what it means, including gems such as that IFR flight is flight under IFR.
• AMC to FCL.050 (c) (1) For CAT, your log can be maintained electronically by the operator
• AMC to FCL.050 (c) (2) For all others, you should use the following logbook format
• The rest of the AMC are just "instructions for use"

Not sure this is what is intended, but this is what is written. And if you think the format is mandatory, I would guess that 99% of all logbooks kept are not compliant.

[BackPacker]

The UK CAA is the competent authority

The CAA may be a competent authority as intended by FCL.050, but AFAIK they are limited by the Acceptable Means of Compliance as issued by EASA. They cannot simply go off on their own and establish their own standards or means of compliance - even if those standards were applicable pre-EASA.

And the only EASA-FCL.050 AMC that I can see is the one requiring a paper logbook (CAT excepted).

If the CAA wants to allow electronic logbooks (and I can only encourage them to do so), they've got to get an AMC for that accepted by EASA. And as far as I can see (the EASA website is still having problems, unfortunately), they haven't.

Article 79 is the law regarding EASA logging by pilots holding a UK issued EASA licence.

AFAIK, the ANO is no longer relevant as far as EASA Annex I aircraft is concerned. The reason the ANO is still there and kept up to date with amendments, is that it is still applicable to Annex II aircraft.

But the meaning of the words is
shall --> must.
should --> strongly recommended.

Do you have a reference for this? It seems to me that stuff like this is a gigantic minefield as far as translation into all the languages of the EU is concerned.

[BillieBob]

The CAA may be a competent authority as intended by FCL.050, but AFAIK they are limited by the Acceptable Means of Compliance as issued by EASA.

That would be true except that, in this case, the Regulation specifically releases them from that limitation, FCL.050 - "....in a form and manner established by the competent authority"

AFAIK, the ANO is no longer relevant as far as EASA Annex I aircraft is concerned.

Completely wrong! The ANO applies to all UK registered aircraft so long as it does not conflict with EU law. Since the establishment of the form and manner of the pilot's record is delegated to the competent authority, the ANO does not, in this case, conflict with EU law and is, therefore, applicable.

It is entirely illogical to assume that once the form and manner has been delegated to the competent authority in 'hard' law, that authority should then be constrained by the 'soft' law of the AMC.

What on earth (or above it) is an Annex I aircraft? Perhaps you mean an EASA aircraft?

[Cobalt]

Do you have a reference for this? It seems to me that stuff like this is a gigantic minefield...

You provide it yourself - the CAA interprets it that way [see CAP 804], and that is what matters in this case.

Also, look at the snappily named "Joint Practical Guide of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission for persons involved in the drafting of legislation within the Community institutions".

It is clear in that document that in English, "shall" shall be used to express commands [and, for example, present tense in French]. Also, note the careful use of "shall" and "should" throughout that document.

Tomorrow morning, I shall present my electronic logbook printout to the CAA, and should they reject it I shall report back to this forum.

Wonderful, these two words - they can mean so many things...

[Gulfstream757]

Thanks for all replies so far

Hi guys I thanks for all the replies after looking through my logbook I have a few questions.

1. There is a section where you have to log the hours that you have before getting the logbook. I only have a 30 min intro flight so should I say I have 30 mins previous experience or should I log it in the normal section as the time is not logged previously.

2. At the start of the logbook it there is a space for the log book no. what do I fill in here?

3.Can I log passenger hours (in the passenger hours section)in GA aircraft only? Also I know you have to be 15 to log training hours does this apply to passenger flying?

Thanks in advance
Gulf'57

[Rhino25782]

1. There is a section where you have to log the hours that you have before getting the logbook. I only have a 30 min intro flight so should I say I have 30 mins previous experience or should I log it in the normal section as the time is not logged previously.

Talk to the instructor who did the intro flight with you. AFAIK, intro flights can be logged towards your PPL. This makes sense, as the first exercise in the syllabus really is an intro flight. There is no requirement to repeat the intro flight once you have decided to actually pursue the PPL.

If for any reason you cannot log the intro flight, I don't really think logging it as previous experience would make any sense. You'll do this when you start your second log book and carry-over the total from the previous log book.

2. At the start of the logbook it there is a space for the log book no. what do I fill in here?

Assuming you haven't had any log books before, this would arguably have to be "1".

3.Can I log passenger hours (in the passenger hours section)in GA aircraft only? Also I know you have to be 15 to log training hours does this apply to passenger flying?

As has been stated above, those numbers are irrelevant to any licensing matters and as such, you can probably handle this as you wish. I'd doubt the usefulness of airline passenger hours in a pilot's log, though. While your experience may grow as a passenger in a GA aircraft by learning from the PIC, this is hardly the case in seat 28F of the average airliner.

Personally (and sadly enough!), I fly more hours as PAX on airliners for business than I fly as PIC in GA aircraft and I'd go nuts if I were to log all those passenger hours. Incidentally, Lufthansa provides a nice web-based log of my passenger flights, inluding breakdowns per airport and aircraft type. ;-)

[mad_jock]

Speak to your instructor they will show and help you fill it in.

If you are going commercial just put in what you need to, nothing more nothing less.

If your only intending to fly as a hobby you can put in what you like. As long as you don't count hours for PIC and DUAL and the like when your a pax.

If you do decide to put all your pax flying in though I won't be responsible for your instructor throttling you when it comes to applying for your PPL.

Its better for you just to keep a separate diary and keep the log book for official stuff.

[Cobalt]

Today I presented a print-out of my electronic logbook to the CAA for a rating change. I signed every page as "I certify the above is a true record of my flying" or words to that effect (it is part of the page header, they asked me to do this the first time I used it several years ago... ) It was accepted without batting an eyelid.

I am sure they prefer that over having to decipher my variable hand-writing.