90 Day Rule - revisited
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I thought this kak had been done to death several times.
If you are not an INSTRUCTOR you are a PASSENGER, It doesn't matter if you are a 50000hr ex Mil ATPL Bush pilot, Unless it says INSTRUCTOR on your licence & INSTRUCTOR is up to date you are still a passenger & cannot sit in the aircraft in any of the seats. "Sole manipulator" is meant to mean "the instructor shouldn't help".
Shirley it ain't rocket science, unless as somone said you are trying to fiddle it.
If you are not an INSTRUCTOR you are a PASSENGER, It doesn't matter if you are a 50000hr ex Mil ATPL Bush pilot, Unless it says INSTRUCTOR on your licence & INSTRUCTOR is up to date you are still a passenger & cannot sit in the aircraft in any of the seats. "Sole manipulator" is meant to mean "the instructor shouldn't help".
Shirley it ain't rocket science, unless as somone said you are trying to fiddle it.
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Isn't AIR LAW taught anymore?
What would have the CAA made of it if Pilot 2 had fessed up and done the decent thing and admitted to being P1? Instead of changing his story and screwing the low hour guy.
Let's be honest - this sort of rule is only unclear to those who don't want it to mean what it clearly does.
Next thing, we'll hear people whining about whether they can log a 'regaining recency' flight as PIC if flown with an FI....
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Sillert,V.I., CAP804 is very clear on when you can log P1 or P2 time.
Co-pilot (P2) time can only be logged on "aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft".
(CAP804 Section 1 Part E page 3, paragraph 3.2)
The aircraft in this incident does not require more than one pilot, so "P2" (the AAIB do not use that phrase, and call him a passenger) is either an instructor or passenger.
Co-pilot (P2) time can only be logged on "aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft".
(CAP804 Section 1 Part E page 3, paragraph 3.2)
The aircraft in this incident does not require more than one pilot, so "P2" (the AAIB do not use that phrase, and call him a passenger) is either an instructor or passenger.
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Definition
I think I know what the rule means, and Crash One & Beagle have summed it up well. However, the wording of the rule ought to be changed. The preceding 90 days, means the 90 days before today. The rule is not about the last 90 days, it is about the preceding 90 days.
So. If I wake up this morning, without three take offs & landings in that 90 day window, then it matters not what I do with an instructor, or solo, today, I can't take passengers until tomorrow.
That is surely not what the rule makers meant, but it is what they have written.
So. If I wake up this morning, without three take offs & landings in that 90 day window, then it matters not what I do with an instructor, or solo, today, I can't take passengers until tomorrow.
That is surely not what the rule makers meant, but it is what they have written.
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A day is a unit of time equal to 24 hours. It is not midnight to midnight (that is called a civil day). So you can fly with passengers immediately after completing 3 take offs and landings.
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I think it would be better to redefine 90 days in a more precise way. The mean solar day is 86,400 seconds, so shouldn't the rule be re-written as "three take off and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the preceding 7,776,000 seconds?"
Or should the definition be based on the sidereal day? 23hr 56 min 4.1s instead of 24hr?
Oh but unfortunately day length varies, see Fluctuations in the length of day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How should the rule take that into account?
Or should the definition be based on the sidereal day? 23hr 56 min 4.1s instead of 24hr?
Oh but unfortunately day length varies, see Fluctuations in the length of day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How should the rule take that into account?
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Let's be honest - this sort of rule is only unclear to those who don't want it to mean what it clearly does.
Personally, I follow mad_jock's interpretation, but I still think the rule is unclear.
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Actually to be pedantic, a day can mean many things from 86400 seconds, to the consecutive period of time during which the Sun is above the horizon, the span of time it takes for the Earth to make one entire rotation and is actually 4 minutes less than 24 hrs. So do the rules mean the last 24 hrs or 23 h 56 mins?! 
If you were flying at 23h 58 mins, could you be prosecuted 
Rules are rules, and this rule is quite simple to follow, and even I have a complete understanding of it. I am not convinced though, that this rule as it stands, is the most beneficial to flight safety. I'd much rather it was worded:
Blah blah..."either solo, with a flight instructor or with another safety pilot who is qualified and current on type". No additional passengers may be carried.
This can be ambiguous too. You can get Single pilot ops, where the aeroplane is operated by one pilot, or the operation can be a two pilot op with both captain and co-pilot onboard the same aeroplane.
If you were flying at 23h 58 mins, could you be prosecuted Rules are rules, and this rule is quite simple to follow, and even I have a complete understanding of it. I am not convinced though, that this rule as it stands, is the most beneficial to flight safety. I'd much rather it was worded:
Blah blah..."either solo, with a flight instructor or with another safety pilot who is qualified and current on type". No additional passengers may be carried.
Co-pilot (P2) time can only be logged on "aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft".
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Rules are rules, and this rule is quite simple to follow, and even I have a complete understanding of it. I am not convinced though, that this rule as it stands, is the most beneficial to flight safety. I'd much rather it was worded:
Blah blah..."either solo, with a flight instructor or with another safety pilot who is qualified and current on type". No additional passengers may be carried.
Blah blah..."either solo, with a flight instructor or with another safety pilot who is qualified and current on type". No additional passengers may be carried.
Then there's the ambiguity that would arise with a safety pilot. Who would log the time as in command, what would the other pilot log it as (not P2, so what else) etc etc? Considering how some people are trying to get around the current, simple rules, the less ambiguity the better.
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Airpolice Some of this may be a bit "tongue in cheek" but
Jesus H Christ, How difficult can it be. Do you really believe that doing 3TO & landings today means you can't fly pax till tomorrow?
This smacks of what I would call tha "Ahh But" culture. A bit like the spelling police on here, people today spend their life trying their best to misinterpret every thing. If it's not absolutely black & white then you've got it wrong. "Ahh But , that's not what you actually said!!"
No wonder the CAA will have to re-write the rule, it's because people are too bloody thick to understand English.
I haven't flown my a/c since November cos of wx & then medical issues I am however current cos I did an hour + with an instructor inc at least 3 touch & go in a 172 a couple of weeks ago. Now if I were to take a pax in my taildragger today & rolled it in a ball, I wonder what Traffords would have to say. Legal? yes. Comments?
Jesus H Christ, How difficult can it be. Do you really believe that doing 3TO & landings today means you can't fly pax till tomorrow?
This smacks of what I would call tha "Ahh But" culture. A bit like the spelling police on here, people today spend their life trying their best to misinterpret every thing. If it's not absolutely black & white then you've got it wrong. "Ahh But , that's not what you actually said!!"
No wonder the CAA will have to re-write the rule, it's because people are too bloody thick to understand English.
I haven't flown my a/c since November cos of wx & then medical issues I am however current cos I did an hour + with an instructor inc at least 3 touch & go in a 172 a couple of weeks ago. Now if I were to take a pax in my taildragger today & rolled it in a ball, I wonder what Traffords would have to say. Legal? yes. Comments?
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A thorough report would have shown that the person who organised the check flight had no legal right to fly the aircraft by virture of not being a benficial owner. Because that kind of information is not publiclly avialable it is impossible for the pilot being checked to have known that. As it stands after this report there's nothing to stop some poor sucker falling into the same trap. That kind of detail is relevant to flight safety.
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To be honest I am just trying to think of all this special training I did for sorting out duff landings that I did in my instructors rating.
Nope I just remember doing lots of S&L 1,2 and effects of control and running through the other exercises.
The dealing with "oh
" moments was picked up on the job. Pretty quick mind.
And I really fail to see how this ability to say "I have control" has gone 1 day after three years.
Nope I just remember doing lots of S&L 1,2 and effects of control and running through the other exercises.
The dealing with "oh
" moments was picked up on the job. Pretty quick mind. And I really fail to see how this ability to say "I have control" has gone 1 day after three years.