90 Day Rule - revisited
Fair enough to charge the going rate for flight instruction for a revalidation training flight, but to charge anything at all for a simple signature is utterly outrageous (unless, of course, a Proficiency Check had been required).
There are reports of some chiselling gits charging £30 just to sign an English Language assessment....
They do if they're SEP hours, but Microlight hours cannot be used towards SEP revalidation (apart from NPPL holders with SSEA and Microlight Class Ratings). However, FCL.002 are considering a widely-supported IAOPA recommendation to allow flight time in 3-axis Microlights to count towards SEP revalidation. The NPA is expected in Q4 2013.
There are reports of some chiselling gits charging £30 just to sign an English Language assessment....
Hours on Annex II don't count towards EASA...
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The bottle of whisky was a present for getting everything sorted out with minimal hassle.
They had asked me up north about getting their revalidation signed. I think my comment was "a bottle of whisky and he will pretty much sign anything and don't bother getting him decent stuff either quantity over quality"
And it wasn't the going rate even if you included employers NI it was well in excess of an hour for an instructor charged for dual with aircraft hire almost double. For the three of them they were looking at 330 quid and the whole group over a grand every two years. The rest of them came up as well but after I left preferred to spend the money positioning than give it to the school. By the time they had payed for food etc it was more but the begrudged paying it to the school.
I also found that if you made the sessions with an instructor fun and value for money the punters would ask for an hour when you were free even when they didn't need it be they group or self hire.
They had asked me up north about getting their revalidation signed. I think my comment was "a bottle of whisky and he will pretty much sign anything and don't bother getting him decent stuff either quantity over quality"
And it wasn't the going rate even if you included employers NI it was well in excess of an hour for an instructor charged for dual with aircraft hire almost double. For the three of them they were looking at 330 quid and the whole group over a grand every two years. The rest of them came up as well but after I left preferred to spend the money positioning than give it to the school. By the time they had payed for food etc it was more but the begrudged paying it to the school.
I also found that if you made the sessions with an instructor fun and value for money the punters would ask for an hour when you were free even when they didn't need it be they group or self hire.
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Regarding the ongoing debate here, what the matter really boils down to is: can a (non instructor) pilot legally allow a passenger to handle the controls?
For those that continue to insist that the regulations are perfectly clear, we now have nearly 140 posts on this thread debating the question, at least three such threads this year, many more in previous years, and an accident report where the AAIB has to seek clarifcation. Regardless of which side of the question you come down on, I struggle to understand those who boldly state 'there is no doubt'. My opening comment on this subject was that the relevent regulations should be rewritten to eliminate the possibility of ambiguity - throwing insinuations about does not address that at all.
For those that continue to insist that the regulations are perfectly clear, we now have nearly 140 posts on this thread debating the question, at least three such threads this year, many more in previous years, and an accident report where the AAIB has to seek clarifcation. Regardless of which side of the question you come down on, I struggle to understand those who boldly state 'there is no doubt'. My opening comment on this subject was that the relevent regulations should be rewritten to eliminate the possibility of ambiguity - throwing insinuations about does not address that at all.
CAP804 explains currency requirements. While CAP804 is not law, the part of CAP804 that states the requirements is taken from EU legislation, which is law across all EU member states. And that is why it is so clear cut. The section of CAP804 that explains the currency requirements cannot be clearer. The problem with the misunderstanding of the currency requirements is because the wording changed in April 2012, but a lot of pilots (most likely all) did not know that and are relying on "sole manipulator of the controls" - which is no longer relevant.
I agree that the regulations are a mess. A pilot has to know the ANO, CAP804, EU legislation, Rules of the Air etc. All of this will amount to thousands of pages of legal jargon, which requires a lawyer to understand. It changes frequently, without any notification to flight crew. If you go flying tomorrow, different parts of your flight will be regulated by different laws or regulations, and you have to be aware of the up-to-date law. How many of us read, understand and follow every single regulation as they are introduced?
BTW the Air Law exam still mentions JAR and ANO, with no reference to EASA and the EU legislation that overrides the ANO. What a great example the CAA are setting!
Last edited by wb9999; 17th Jun 2013 at 07:31.
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Links to some of the above:
EASA - Acceptable Means of Compliance and Guidance Material
look at "Part FCL", then "Annex to decision 2011/016/R"
Looking inside that tells you it is:
"Acceptable Means of Compliance and Guidance Material to Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011"
Googling 1178/2011, (ignoring its helpful division sum),
gives an EASA index page:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/regulatio...-structure.php
Where you can find it, and its amendment, under "Aircrew".
I did the IR Air law exam a couple of years back, and there was no mention of EASA in any of that either, not even where to look. I assume the links above are "official", but all I did was google. Of course, there is also CAP804 for the UK.
EASA - Acceptable Means of Compliance and Guidance Material
look at "Part FCL", then "Annex to decision 2011/016/R"
Looking inside that tells you it is:
"Acceptable Means of Compliance and Guidance Material to Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011"
Googling 1178/2011, (ignoring its helpful division sum),
gives an EASA index page:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/regulatio...-structure.php
Where you can find it, and its amendment, under "Aircrew".
I did the IR Air law exam a couple of years back, and there was no mention of EASA in any of that either, not even where to look. I assume the links above are "official", but all I did was google. Of course, there is also CAP804 for the UK.
So you are pilot with around 80 hours total time, of which 8 are on the type you are about to fly. You have done zero hours in the last 90 days. Clearly you are reasonably new to all this.
At what point would it be so completely stupid to call the instructor you did your PPL with or even the CAA for guidance??
At what point would it be so completely stupid to call the instructor you did your PPL with or even the CAA for guidance??
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I'd guess pilot 1 in this case would have consulted the group leader in the first instance.
After all, how many of us, once we have our own toy or share o'plane ever think of speaking to a flying school. We tend to rely on the views of more experienced pilots we fly with.
It's been said before, but there is a general view that it is a sin to have to fly with an instructor. Look at how many of us will leave it very late to pile in the 12 hours for revalidation, rather than taking the cheaper route of an LST.
After all, how many of us, once we have our own toy or share o'plane ever think of speaking to a flying school. We tend to rely on the views of more experienced pilots we fly with.
It's been said before, but there is a general view that it is a sin to have to fly with an instructor. Look at how many of us will leave it very late to pile in the 12 hours for revalidation, rather than taking the cheaper route of an LST.
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Calling the CAA these days is pretty much stupid all of the time.
1. It cost a fortune
2. They just tell you to read CAP804 even if you tell them its not in it.
3.They won't give written answer so any reply is useless.
And if you decide to email the day you have just done your 3 circuits in all likely hood you will be out on the 90 days before you get a reply.
As for the instructor bit I suspect the group will be very anti having anything to do with the schools so will be telling the new member what to do. And as they are so experienced peer pressure will keep low hour's pilot away from previous instructors.
Then again who is to say the instructor is any better informed than anyone else about the changes with EASA
1. It cost a fortune
2. They just tell you to read CAP804 even if you tell them its not in it.
3.They won't give written answer so any reply is useless.
And if you decide to email the day you have just done your 3 circuits in all likely hood you will be out on the 90 days before you get a reply.
As for the instructor bit I suspect the group will be very anti having anything to do with the schools so will be telling the new member what to do. And as they are so experienced peer pressure will keep low hour's pilot away from previous instructors.
Then again who is to say the instructor is any better informed than anyone else about the changes with EASA
So the CAA are rubbish and so is EASA... so are the rules....so are instructors....
Bit of pattern forming.
So our new pilot is looking to do some flying (all be it not too much as he's pinged the 90 day rule) and looks to join a group. One with a few accidents (or so it would seem). How do you view the group and the experience therein?
Bit of pattern forming.
So our new pilot is looking to do some flying (all be it not too much as he's pinged the 90 day rule) and looks to join a group. One with a few accidents (or so it would seem). How do you view the group and the experience therein?
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Not all instructors are rubbish.
Just the hour building idiots that have been trained to fly big jets and not much else. You only really have a clue what your doing at about 700-800 hours and some never get it. In fact post instructing full time and moving onto bigger stuff is when certain things click into place as well as the priority's while flying.
Are you an instructor yourself?
The group more than likely has quite a bit of experience on paper but the senior members are more than likely quite set in there ways and its a bit of an ego trip for them with their inexperienced little followers hanging on every word they say. I don't have a clue about this group or the airfield but I should imagine that there will have been on going feuds between the senior members and various CFI's of the local schools and other local users from doing things their own way for years.
They more than likely talk a good flight in the bar but in practise they struggle to practise what they preach.
This is what the hour with an instructor was meant to solve but failed miserably.
Just the hour building idiots that have been trained to fly big jets and not much else. You only really have a clue what your doing at about 700-800 hours and some never get it. In fact post instructing full time and moving onto bigger stuff is when certain things click into place as well as the priority's while flying.
Are you an instructor yourself?
The group more than likely has quite a bit of experience on paper but the senior members are more than likely quite set in there ways and its a bit of an ego trip for them with their inexperienced little followers hanging on every word they say. I don't have a clue about this group or the airfield but I should imagine that there will have been on going feuds between the senior members and various CFI's of the local schools and other local users from doing things their own way for years.
They more than likely talk a good flight in the bar but in practise they struggle to practise what they preach.
This is what the hour with an instructor was meant to solve but failed miserably.
Hey MJ - no not I'm an instructor but I see a lot of your points.
What I don't really get is how some can make very hard work out of something.
There is no shame paying for training at anytime in your flying life and in some ways you have to "smile" when the first thing a low time pilot does is invest in a flying group!
What I don't really get is how some can make very hard work out of something.
There is no shame paying for training at anytime in your flying life and in some ways you have to "smile" when the first thing a low time pilot does is invest in a flying group!
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I actually have a lot of sympathy for the groups.
And I can fully understand why some of them won't go near a flying school unless they really have to. Mainly due to the complete and utter knob jockeys that own and run them in the main. And the fact that in a lot of cases a 500 hour PPL will have way more clue than the zero to hero FI about how to fly a light aircraft properly.
Its all about making the flights fun and value for money. If the FI can crack that punters don't mind going up for a hour. In fact it becomes a habit to go and do some GH and pfl's for a hour every 6 months in my experience.
If its not fun and a rip off you won't see them until they really have to.
And I can fully understand why some of them won't go near a flying school unless they really have to. Mainly due to the complete and utter knob jockeys that own and run them in the main. And the fact that in a lot of cases a 500 hour PPL will have way more clue than the zero to hero FI about how to fly a light aircraft properly.
Its all about making the flights fun and value for money. If the FI can crack that punters don't mind going up for a hour. In fact it becomes a habit to go and do some GH and pfl's for a hour every 6 months in my experience.
If its not fun and a rip off you won't see them until they really have to.
Sure but this isn't the case here is it?
And the fact that in a lot of cases a 500 hour PPL will have way more clue than the zero to hero FI about how to fly a light aircraft properly.
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In no way does the FIC prepare you for what happen to them.
There have been plenty of instructors put in the same position ended up in the same boat.
There is some bits of instructing which can be simulated and other bits just smack you between the eyes when they first happen. And its usually the students/pilots who you think are pretty good which bite your bum the hardest.
When they do happen its up to the individual and their own ability's to sort it out. Having a current FI ticket doesn't really change the situation.
There have been plenty of instructors put in the same position ended up in the same boat.
There is some bits of instructing which can be simulated and other bits just smack you between the eyes when they first happen. And its usually the students/pilots who you think are pretty good which bite your bum the hardest.
When they do happen its up to the individual and their own ability's to sort it out. Having a current FI ticket doesn't really change the situation.
whilst accepting accidents can happen etc, etc, blah unfortunately if you extend your argument to its ultimate conclusion then all bets are off!
This popham flying group seem a group of doom!
This popham flying group seem a group of doom!
Mad Jock - re post 149 " an ego trip for them with their inexperienced little followers hanging on every word they say."
Are you sure you are in Scotland and not based at EGHP - not too far off the mark from what I have heard
Are you sure you are in Scotland and not based at EGHP - not too far off the mark from what I have heard
Last edited by cjhants; 17th Jun 2013 at 12:43.
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A lot further away than Scotland, and never even landed at the place.
yep all bets are off when you get into unusual attitudes close to the ground.
The trick of being an instructor is not to let the sods get into them in the first place. Takes a few hundred hours and quite a few screw-ups to develop a third sense when the sods are about to try and kill you. Again nothing at all in the 20 hours and 5 hours mutual will prepare you for this.
And after what cjhants has said it will more than likely continue to be until the auld farts are knocked away from their ego trips.
yep all bets are off when you get into unusual attitudes close to the ground.
The trick of being an instructor is not to let the sods get into them in the first place. Takes a few hundred hours and quite a few screw-ups to develop a third sense when the sods are about to try and kill you. Again nothing at all in the 20 hours and 5 hours mutual will prepare you for this.
And after what cjhants has said it will more than likely continue to be until the auld farts are knocked away from their ego trips.
I used to try to think up a new and original way to kill my instructors each lesson. They kept me safe, but I think I kept them on their toes. I remember the time happily.
Another stone in the road. If you're PIC you should be paying at least half the costs of the flight. Whatever the legality of checking out another pilot who is beyond 90 days and allowing him to be sole manipulator of the controls, I can't see many people actually doing this...
Another stone in the road. If you're PIC you should be paying at least half the costs of the flight. Whatever the legality of checking out another pilot who is beyond 90 days and allowing him to be sole manipulator of the controls, I can't see many people actually doing this...
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There are several areas which shall we say common practise which has been done for years is contrary to what the law is.
And the cost of the flight is a common one.
People ferry aircraft for their mates.
groups do checkouts.
etc etc.
And the cost of the flight is a common one.
People ferry aircraft for their mates.
groups do checkouts.
etc etc.
