Does anyone use those iPhone Naviagation Apps
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Does anyone use those iPhone Naviagation Apps
There is an app on the appstore called AirNav, I downloaded it out of interest and well its pretty much a moving map for VFR navigation, but I won't use it.
I am interested if anyone uses them in the air, what is the accuracy like, with them, are they usable as a tertiary source to Dead Reckoning and feature following and Radio Navigation?
Also whats the legality of these things?
I am interested if anyone uses them in the air, what is the accuracy like, with them, are they usable as a tertiary source to Dead Reckoning and feature following and Radio Navigation?
Also whats the legality of these things?
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I used to use Air Nav Pro on my iPad / iPhone but as the developers added more features, it become slower and slower until the program would often crash when opening AIPs. However what really caused me to consign this program to the bin was the fact that, sporadically, the programmers would release an update which would then delete ALL your maps.
Ok, the maps weren't deleted, they were still on the iPhone / iPad BUT the links to them were gone and the only way to have the maps working again was by reinstalling all the maps. In one case, I was abroad and had to download 3GB of map data from their store because of their abject incompetence - 4 times this happened on various releases (never subsequent, always a few months apart) until I said enough.
From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use, however it works reasonably well if you have the maps / aips downloaded; also, the position of the unit in the plane will determine how accurate the software is - after all, if you have a high wing plane and the iPhone is mounted low in the cockpit, the chances are, it will lose the signal. I used to use an external GPS receiver but in the Archer, mounted to the yoke, the iPhone never lost a signal.
To conclude: software is ok, if only the programmers would stop issuing releases which then require you to reinstall your maps..... Legal? Not as the sole means of navigation, but it works well....
Ok, the maps weren't deleted, they were still on the iPhone / iPad BUT the links to them were gone and the only way to have the maps working again was by reinstalling all the maps. In one case, I was abroad and had to download 3GB of map data from their store because of their abject incompetence - 4 times this happened on various releases (never subsequent, always a few months apart) until I said enough.
From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use, however it works reasonably well if you have the maps / aips downloaded; also, the position of the unit in the plane will determine how accurate the software is - after all, if you have a high wing plane and the iPhone is mounted low in the cockpit, the chances are, it will lose the signal. I used to use an external GPS receiver but in the Archer, mounted to the yoke, the iPhone never lost a signal.
To conclude: software is ok, if only the programmers would stop issuing releases which then require you to reinstall your maps..... Legal? Not as the sole means of navigation, but it works well....
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This is the one I have, Its AirNav Standard, it seems pretty neat for airspace awareness as a secondary source and the Ireland charts and maps were free so it was only €6
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From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use
In VFR or IFR private-flight (non AOC) there is no concept of sole nav, primary nav, or any of the many similar concepts one often reads about.
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Quote:
From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use
You ought to ask the source of that statement for a reference, because there isn't any
From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use
You ought to ask the source of that statement for a reference, because there isn't any
Now, this might be a case of semantics - primary navigation in this case meaning a valid chart - but on it's own, Air Navigation was not considered by the inspectors of the BR suitable for flight without a second means of navigation - ie, an actual chart.
That is down to their National Law. Later this year when Part NCO is adopted it states:
Now what constitutes a suitable aeronautical chart?
current and suitable aeronautical charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect that the flight may be diverted;
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That is down to their National Law. Later this year when Part NCO is adopted it states:
current and suitable aeronautical charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect that the flight may be diverted;
Now what constitutes a suitable aeronautical chart?
According to them, what it needs to be is relevant (a road map is obviously out) showing air space boundaries, frequencies and the like and must be current....
The question is, how they could determine whether my digital charts were actual or not from a print out ;-)
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Now, this might be a case of semantics - primary navigation in this case meaning a valid chart - but on it's own, Air Navigation was not considered by the inspectors of the BR suitable for flight without a second means of navigation - ie, an actual chart.
However, there is no way to fly with outdated maps, the above provision is very specific about that. Not even if nothing has changed!
Last edited by achimha; 19th May 2013 at 18:54.
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Now what constitutes a suitable aeronautical chart?
Germany has had that "suitable" definition for maps for many years and to my knowledge there has never been the need for a higher level court to establish what is suitable.
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Peterh337, Achimha,
The question was asked by the pilot to the BR inspector why he considered that the ANP was not suitable - after all, the actual charts, aips were loaded on them.
The BR inspector pointed out that it is not in the realms of impossibility for the iPad / iPhone to fail - indeed, with the original iPad it was noted that they failed due to heat at altitude when the sun shone directly onto it ( I had this happen to me once ) - or the battery to fail, in such a situation the pilot has no means of navigation. Even with a charger connected, the unit could still fail without warning which was why the BR Inspector considered the ANP to be unsuitable because of a lack of redundancy for the technics.....
Therefore, as he considered the chart not suitable for navigation, he requested the pilot to copy a chart and take that along, which he did - irrespective of whether he used it or not. Now, you might care to argue with the BR, that the guy exceeded his remit - I would rather not wind them up the wrong way, I saw what happened to someone who did.......
The question was asked by the pilot to the BR inspector why he considered that the ANP was not suitable - after all, the actual charts, aips were loaded on them.
The BR inspector pointed out that it is not in the realms of impossibility for the iPad / iPhone to fail - indeed, with the original iPad it was noted that they failed due to heat at altitude when the sun shone directly onto it ( I had this happen to me once ) - or the battery to fail, in such a situation the pilot has no means of navigation. Even with a charger connected, the unit could still fail without warning which was why the BR Inspector considered the ANP to be unsuitable because of a lack of redundancy for the technics.....
Therefore, as he considered the chart not suitable for navigation, he requested the pilot to copy a chart and take that along, which he did - irrespective of whether he used it or not. Now, you might care to argue with the BR, that the guy exceeded his remit - I would rather not wind them up the wrong way, I saw what happened to someone who did.......
Last edited by Steve6443; 19th May 2013 at 19:33.
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The BR inspector pointed out that it is not in the realms of impossibility for the iPad / iPhone to fail
Now, you might care to argue with the BR, that the guy exceeded his remit
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I don't agree. Under EASA-NCO there is a phrase about navigation means, which says "availability has to be guaranteed" or something along those lines. The AMCs specifically go into the subject of digital charts and other digital data and specify that these may be used BUT you have to consider the case where your digital device fails.
So if said pilot relied on his electronic device exclusively, and had no suitable backup in case of failure, the German officer may well be right.
The "map sucked out the window" argument is mostly idiotic, as far as I'm concerned. In your average spamcan a lot has to go wrong for that to happen, and if you're flying an open cockpit, microlight or other aircraft where the risk is real, you already considered this and either have a backup solution or made sure it can't happen. In any case, an iPad can also be sucked out the window, or dropped, or whatever. But a paper chart doesn't have any chance of becoming unavailable due to some internal hardware or software failure, or overheating, or running out of battery charge, or any of the other problems present in electronic devices.
Looking at my personal experience, both in an aviation and in non-aviation contexts, the number of times an electronic device somehow failed and became unavailable, either temporary or permanently, is much, much higher than the number of times a piece of paper somehow failed. So the concern of the authorities about failure of electronic navigation equipment and the need for a suitable backup are, IMO, entirely justified.
So if said pilot relied on his electronic device exclusively, and had no suitable backup in case of failure, the German officer may well be right.
The "map sucked out the window" argument is mostly idiotic, as far as I'm concerned. In your average spamcan a lot has to go wrong for that to happen, and if you're flying an open cockpit, microlight or other aircraft where the risk is real, you already considered this and either have a backup solution or made sure it can't happen. In any case, an iPad can also be sucked out the window, or dropped, or whatever. But a paper chart doesn't have any chance of becoming unavailable due to some internal hardware or software failure, or overheating, or running out of battery charge, or any of the other problems present in electronic devices.
Looking at my personal experience, both in an aviation and in non-aviation contexts, the number of times an electronic device somehow failed and became unavailable, either temporary or permanently, is much, much higher than the number of times a piece of paper somehow failed. So the concern of the authorities about failure of electronic navigation equipment and the need for a suitable backup are, IMO, entirely justified.
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I,m no expert but here is my understanding of using nav apps on your iphone/ipad.
I have an old ipad i beleive it is a version 2 with no gps chip, so i have bought a garmin glo gps receiver (which is about the size of a half packet of fags) the 2 work well together, however my iphone 5 does have gps capability but i beleive it does not allow the garmin glo when connected via blue tooth to override the phones internal GPS functions with the more accuare GLO device, so there is not much point in using the GLO with the iphone 5,
I plan to use the ipad 2 connected to the garmin glo for skydemon flightplans loaded on the ipad. I have a panel mounted Garmin 496 in the plane that can accept skydemon flightplans but you have to remove it from the airgizmo panel to access the micro usb connector which is a pain in the ass, so i will use the glo ipad 2 combo for vfr nav
I have an old ipad i beleive it is a version 2 with no gps chip, so i have bought a garmin glo gps receiver (which is about the size of a half packet of fags) the 2 work well together, however my iphone 5 does have gps capability but i beleive it does not allow the garmin glo when connected via blue tooth to override the phones internal GPS functions with the more accuare GLO device, so there is not much point in using the GLO with the iphone 5,
I plan to use the ipad 2 connected to the garmin glo for skydemon flightplans loaded on the ipad. I have a panel mounted Garmin 496 in the plane that can accept skydemon flightplans but you have to remove it from the airgizmo panel to access the micro usb connector which is a pain in the ass, so i will use the glo ipad 2 combo for vfr nav
Bought an iPad mini, now the paper chart stays in the bag where it belongs. That was the dark ages. I use foreflight here in the states and I can't say enough good about it. I have it on my iPhone too, which would work in a pinch but is a bit small.
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I don't agree. Under EASA-NCO there is a phrase about navigation means, which says "availability has to be guaranteed" or something along those lines.
Where would EASA NCO prefer paper over digital devices and where does it require two map sources? It only talks about navigational equipment and in case navigation cannot be performed using visual landmarks requires the pilot to be able to safely conduct the flight in case one item of the navigational equipment fails. Navigational equipment is linked to the flight plan so it can hardly apply to a map. In my understanding is says you shall have e.g. a VOR in addition to a GPS for e.g. VMC on top.
Last edited by achimha; 20th May 2013 at 06:12.
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I noticed that today a UK version of an app we have had down here for a few years has been released... UKRunways is the UK version of Ozrunways ...you guys will love it! Has a lot more than just maps and its almost idiot proof as I can even use it! Have met the developers and they are great guys that were only too happy to help with any questions! Give it a look!
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I noticed that today a UK version of an app we have had down here for a few years has been released... UKRunways is the UK version of Ozrunways ...you guys will love it! Has a lot more than just maps and its almost idiot proof as I can even use it! Have met the developers and they are great guys that were only too happy to help with any questions! Give it a look!