Logging P1
Joined: Oct 2010
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From: USA
You can't have one person as Pilot in Command for logging purposes and simultaneously another person as PIC for insurance purposes. Try to imagine how you would explain it all in a court.
Joined: May 2008
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From: UK
Is there really a measureable chance of some CAA official accessing a pilot's logbook, auditing the entries, cross-referencing those to a separate audit of an aircraft's insurance, and then pursing a case against the pilot?
Having personally been involved in investigations of this nature, I can tell you it's not fun, there are certainly no tea and biscuits when the investigator thinks you've done something wrong, and having something illegal in your log book is certainly not going to go in your favour.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 346
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From: USA
How on God's earth is a "concerned observer" going to know the insurance limits on somebody elses's aircraft? And why would he care? Honestly, the whole thing just strikes me as silly, self perpetuating nonsense.
Joined: May 2008
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From: UK
Just look at the list of caa prosecutions. Usually there are multiple offences being committed, and usually it's reported by someone on the ground who was concerned.
Logging a flight in an aircraft which you are not insured to fly makes any investigators job rather easy.
Logging a flight in an aircraft which you are not insured to fly makes any investigators job rather easy.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 665
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From: Essex
From the original post...
Just that, yet another highly unlikely scenario, dreamed up by a pilot showing his inexperience, and who has nothing better to do than create such drivel.
Good evening,
A scenario;
A scenario;
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Or is the OP maybe a "concerned observer" who needed some advice before calling the CAA, but removed some detail to protect the presumed innocent?
Looking at the amount of threads about logging P1/P2 in a single pilot aircraft, and from actual experience, I know there's a lot of confusion and a lot of pilots logging hours they're not entitled to. And some of these improperly logged hours are used to claim experience for the issue or revalidation of a rating. That's where things may get tricky.
Not to mention a concern a group member may have about the consequences if somebody wrecks the aircraft, and the insurance finds out that the person who was handling the plane had a history of claiming P1 time on that aircraft, but was not insured to do so.
Looking at the amount of threads about logging P1/P2 in a single pilot aircraft, and from actual experience, I know there's a lot of confusion and a lot of pilots logging hours they're not entitled to. And some of these improperly logged hours are used to claim experience for the issue or revalidation of a rating. That's where things may get tricky.
Not to mention a concern a group member may have about the consequences if somebody wrecks the aircraft, and the insurance finds out that the person who was handling the plane had a history of claiming P1 time on that aircraft, but was not insured to do so.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
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From: In the boot of my car!
Backpacker
Sadly pilots need hours especially in the early days. hours cost a lot of money so I have some sympathy.
there used to be pilots in the USA who would sell turbine time just taking someone along in the right seat or even selling fictitious time full stop!
So I do not really have that much of a problem with someone flying from the right when qualified to do so and logging the hours whetherv he is on the insurance or not!
If he is not on the insurance log it after the event when all is ok if something happens the insured guy is PIC
Pace
Sadly pilots need hours especially in the early days. hours cost a lot of money so I have some sympathy.
there used to be pilots in the USA who would sell turbine time just taking someone along in the right seat or even selling fictitious time full stop!
So I do not really have that much of a problem with someone flying from the right when qualified to do so and logging the hours whetherv he is on the insurance or not!
If he is not on the insurance log it after the event when all is ok if something happens the insured guy is PIC
Pace
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: London
UV - actually you couldn't be more wong. 650 hour fixed/rotary pilot presented with exactly this scenario by a party interested in buying a share in HER aircraft. And unclear on the legalities of such a scenario.
Joined: May 2008
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From: UK
By acting as pilot in command when not insured you are breaking the law.
Asking this question is like asking if the guy in the right hand seat is drunk can he log P1? If his medical is invalidated by a medical condition he has not yet disclosed to the CAA can he log P1?
Of course he can, but he should then expect to pay any fines, and have his licence removed if he ever gets found out.
Asking this question is like asking if the guy in the right hand seat is drunk can he log P1? If his medical is invalidated by a medical condition he has not yet disclosed to the CAA can he log P1?
Of course he can, but he should then expect to pay any fines, and have his licence removed if he ever gets found out.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
RTN11
There is pilot licensing and aircraft licensing! Holding a medical is part of pilot licensing having insurance is part of aircraft requirements.
Very different.
As stated before what happens if the aircraft becomes ILLEGAL in flight??
Yes technically it does and can happen.
Does that mean the pilot can only log the part up to the point that the aircraft became illegal.
Some time back I was flying near a war zone excluded under the terms of the insurance. Bad thunderstorms forced me further and further towards the edge of that airspace which got the controller very excited.
I did not enter but had I done so ? void insurance.
Equally if something goes wrong with the aircraft? not your fault your stuck with it but technically you now have an illegal aircraft do you stop recording the flight?
Yes if you fly an illegal aircraft from the ground up the chances are you will be charged as the commander and prosecuted but that is different to not being qualified or licensed to fly and record that flight.
Pace
There is pilot licensing and aircraft licensing! Holding a medical is part of pilot licensing having insurance is part of aircraft requirements.
Very different.
As stated before what happens if the aircraft becomes ILLEGAL in flight??
Yes technically it does and can happen.
Does that mean the pilot can only log the part up to the point that the aircraft became illegal.
Some time back I was flying near a war zone excluded under the terms of the insurance. Bad thunderstorms forced me further and further towards the edge of that airspace which got the controller very excited.
I did not enter but had I done so ? void insurance.
Equally if something goes wrong with the aircraft? not your fault your stuck with it but technically you now have an illegal aircraft do you stop recording the flight?
Yes if you fly an illegal aircraft from the ground up the chances are you will be charged as the commander and prosecuted but that is different to not being qualified or licensed to fly and record that flight.
Pace
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,366
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From: UK
The OP was not regarding any of those scenarios though, it was aimed at the pilot in the right seat doing the flying with no insurance, which would be illegal for no reason at all.
Obviously if you're in flight and you lose something which affects the airworthiness, you are technically flying an illegal aircraft, but you would not have become airborne with this defect. Of course in this instance you would log the whole flight, and you would likely be submitting a report to the CAA, the AAIB or your insurance company, so you would want the records to be correct.
This is completely different from simply choosing to invalidate your insurance because it suits your mood.
Obviously if you're in flight and you lose something which affects the airworthiness, you are technically flying an illegal aircraft, but you would not have become airborne with this defect. Of course in this instance you would log the whole flight, and you would likely be submitting a report to the CAA, the AAIB or your insurance company, so you would want the records to be correct.
This is completely different from simply choosing to invalidate your insurance because it suits your mood.
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Tamworth, UK / Nairobi, Kenya
"On 30th April 2005, EC Regulation EC 785/2004 on insurance requirements for air carriers and aircraft operators came into force. The Regulation was subsequently amended on 6th April 2010. The Regulation, as amended, specifies the minimum levels of insurance required by aircraft operators and air carriers in respect of third party cover, passenger cover and cover for risks of war and terrorism."
Does this mean that anyone flying any plane is required to have insurance? Since when are private individuals hiring an hour in a plane considered to be air carriers or aircraft operators?
I could be way off, but that's not what I thought I was when I hired a plane.
Does this mean that anyone flying any plane is required to have insurance? Since when are private individuals hiring an hour in a plane considered to be air carriers or aircraft operators?
I could be way off, but that's not what I thought I was when I hired a plane.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 682
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From: UK
Since when are private individuals hiring an hour in a plane considered to be air carriers or aircraft operators?
aircraft is.
Problems arise when PIC confirms all paperwork correct but doesn't know
that the (in date) insurance cover note is invalid as the premium has not
been paid. Although the flight was "illegal" I doubt the PIC broke the law,
and was certainly entitled to record PIC (if not required to under EASA).
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 682
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From: UK
Just that, yet another highly unlikely scenario, dreamed up by a pilot showing his inexperience, and who has nothing better to do than create such drivel.
Qualified pilot goes flying (as a passenger) with a friend. Friend lets fellow
pilot have a go on the controls, possibly even control the aircraft for quite
a long time.
On landing Passenger would like to Log this flight - only being put off by
fact they weren't insured - completely forgetting (or ignoring) that they
were NEVER the pilot, let alone PIC, for this flight.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 346
Likes: 1
From: USA
This thread is an absolutely wonderful example of the law of unintended consequences. Once you pass an (unnecessary) law mandating insurance you generate a bunch of complex issues, all of which combined have no effect whatsoever on safety, or anything else in the real world. Compliance becomes time wasting nonsense of the type that has (tragically) resulted in Europe becoming a GA backwater since WW II.
The silly 'IFR as PhD' stuff is just about as bad.
The question then becomes, are you people ever going to be able to free yourself from nonsense like this, or do you actually like it?
It's just an aircraft, get in and fly it, try hard not to crash and life will be good.
The silly 'IFR as PhD' stuff is just about as bad.
The question then becomes, are you people ever going to be able to free yourself from nonsense like this, or do you actually like it?
It's just an aircraft, get in and fly it, try hard not to crash and life will be good.
Last edited by Silvaire1; 29th March 2013 at 01:55.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Silvaire
The problem with Europe is we have too many Government created artificial jobs. We relied on the financial world and leisure industry to create wealth and created a huge industry in regulating.
You cannot breath without braking a law and we tut tut at anything and everything.
Think it was a very famous fighter pilot Sir Douglas Bader who said something like " The Law is for fools to obey and wise men to question".
We have changed into a nation of fools sadly!
Just look at the chaos that was created here with the volcanic ash
Not one life lost to Volcanic ash in the whole history of aviation but it brought Europe to a standstill.
Look at EASA itself and the cost of that regulator but the USA since 9/11 has also become regulation and security obsessed
The above response is a general observation
Pace
The problem with Europe is we have too many Government created artificial jobs. We relied on the financial world and leisure industry to create wealth and created a huge industry in regulating.
You cannot breath without braking a law and we tut tut at anything and everything.
Think it was a very famous fighter pilot Sir Douglas Bader who said something like " The Law is for fools to obey and wise men to question".
We have changed into a nation of fools sadly!
Just look at the chaos that was created here with the volcanic ash
Not one life lost to Volcanic ash in the whole history of aviation but it brought Europe to a standstill.
Look at EASA itself and the cost of that regulator but the USA since 9/11 has also become regulation and security obsessed
The above response is a general observation
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 29th March 2013 at 07:52.