Busy airspace has the Commander flustered!
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Busy airspace has the Commander flustered!
On one of the US forums I always try to calm and reassure people flying into LA for the first time how very good and gentle that airspace actually is. How they have nothing to fear. How it can look intimidating at first glance, but is in fact much easier to navigate and fly in than it appears, bla, bla. In fact, one can fly around pretty much all of LA without even having to have a radio - most of it is G and E airspace. Only have to go a few miles south to San Diego to see what nightmares are made of - talk about complex. LA is like stealing candy from babies in comparison. So as I came back from long xcountry from the east, sun shining, I was rather smug in my cockpit and confident in my 'hometown' experience.
Man, what a nuthouse.
Started with Palm Springs radar being out of service as I came over the mountains, so the overworked LA Center controller was giving VFR clearances to heavy metal as if they were Cessnas. You could tell the crews were not used to this and couldn't really deal with it, constantly asking questions that only a radar could answer. "American 1515 - just stay VFR for now at 11000ft". A mess - a million bogies everywhere, eyes on a swivel and constant altitude and traffic prods. From LSA's to MD80's. You couldn't get a word in edgewise and there was simply no way of controlling all that traffic. He had VFR traffic at IFR altitudes just to space them etc.
A bizjet overtakes me at 8 o'clock pretty close, about 500ft higher, then I see a big Southwest 737 coming at my 2 o'clock. Same altitude, but he's in a turn and got his belly up to me. Has he seen me? I stop my VFR descent from 10500ft and pull up just in case even though I'd been given the go ahead to start my descent. He passes in front and under me. Now, I get passed to SoCal controller and they thankfully have radar. As if that would improve things.
Further away, there's a primary return not talking to anyone and not squawking Mode C (although it's mandatory within 30nm of LAX) that everyone has to watch out for. Nobody see's him. Then a new bogie:
"20VE stop your descent! I have traffic at same altitude that I'm not talking to at your 10 o'clock - do you see him?".
I catch him finally - he's close, a Cessna. Passes right under me. By now, next he has a big jet turn around on a downwind for Ontario and he keeps me at 5000ft. By now I don't have very far to go and it's going to be a race to get down. I get handed off to next SoCal controller and my radio explodes again.
"Same altitude, same direction, 9 o'clock, a Diamondstar, going same speed to El Monte - do you have traffic?"
No.
"At your 1 o'clock 500ft above you, Skyhawk, also descending, slower, also for El Monte - do you have it?"
No.
"20VE - stop descent! I traffic opposite direction climbing out of 3400ft that I'm not talking to. Stay at 4000ft or higher".
I was getting seriously overworked. I finally make the traffic to my left - he was going the exact same speed and blended nicely into the background. The Cessna is converging with me, but I'm overtaking it. I finally make the opposing traffic that wasn't talking to anyone, but now I' have like 2 miles to go and needed to lose 4000ft. Yoke forward and down we go as I pull away from the Diamondstar. She hands me off to tower right after this just to get us out of her hair - and who can blame her?
Tower is madly overworked as well. I can't get my call in and by now I'm on a long base. I finally get through and he says stay north of the freeway and I'll call your turn. Except, he doesn't. So now I'm past the final, with multiple traffic going in both left and right patterns and the Cessna and Diamondstar chasing my a**. I prod. Oh, I cleared you to base, why haven't you turned final? No you didn't - or at least I didn't hear it. Well, turn immediate final now. I'm well past it, but start the turn. I'm still like an angel at almost 3000ft, so gear comes out, flaps (even though we're deploying borderline above safe speeds) - everything and I turn really steep turns to try to help lose even more. I land long and ugly with too much speed - not the best end to a long day's flying.
In my 3 years living here and flying here, this was the busiest I've ever seen it. I used to be terrible on the radio (and in life) when I had to speak 'publicly'. I always botched my calls up. I finally became better at it, but today brought me right back to that feel I used to have when things just didn't work. It's a reminder that flying, air traffic, workload, circumstances do not care if you're tired and have been flying all day. And it certainly will show you who's boss if you get too smug and complacent and familiar with your home turf.
TCAS for christmas, maybe?
What's your worst busy airspace story?
Man, what a nuthouse.
Started with Palm Springs radar being out of service as I came over the mountains, so the overworked LA Center controller was giving VFR clearances to heavy metal as if they were Cessnas. You could tell the crews were not used to this and couldn't really deal with it, constantly asking questions that only a radar could answer. "American 1515 - just stay VFR for now at 11000ft". A mess - a million bogies everywhere, eyes on a swivel and constant altitude and traffic prods. From LSA's to MD80's. You couldn't get a word in edgewise and there was simply no way of controlling all that traffic. He had VFR traffic at IFR altitudes just to space them etc.
A bizjet overtakes me at 8 o'clock pretty close, about 500ft higher, then I see a big Southwest 737 coming at my 2 o'clock. Same altitude, but he's in a turn and got his belly up to me. Has he seen me? I stop my VFR descent from 10500ft and pull up just in case even though I'd been given the go ahead to start my descent. He passes in front and under me. Now, I get passed to SoCal controller and they thankfully have radar. As if that would improve things.
Further away, there's a primary return not talking to anyone and not squawking Mode C (although it's mandatory within 30nm of LAX) that everyone has to watch out for. Nobody see's him. Then a new bogie:
"20VE stop your descent! I have traffic at same altitude that I'm not talking to at your 10 o'clock - do you see him?".
I catch him finally - he's close, a Cessna. Passes right under me. By now, next he has a big jet turn around on a downwind for Ontario and he keeps me at 5000ft. By now I don't have very far to go and it's going to be a race to get down. I get handed off to next SoCal controller and my radio explodes again.
"Same altitude, same direction, 9 o'clock, a Diamondstar, going same speed to El Monte - do you have traffic?"
No.
"At your 1 o'clock 500ft above you, Skyhawk, also descending, slower, also for El Monte - do you have it?"
No.
"20VE - stop descent! I traffic opposite direction climbing out of 3400ft that I'm not talking to. Stay at 4000ft or higher".
I was getting seriously overworked. I finally make the traffic to my left - he was going the exact same speed and blended nicely into the background. The Cessna is converging with me, but I'm overtaking it. I finally make the opposing traffic that wasn't talking to anyone, but now I' have like 2 miles to go and needed to lose 4000ft. Yoke forward and down we go as I pull away from the Diamondstar. She hands me off to tower right after this just to get us out of her hair - and who can blame her?
Tower is madly overworked as well. I can't get my call in and by now I'm on a long base. I finally get through and he says stay north of the freeway and I'll call your turn. Except, he doesn't. So now I'm past the final, with multiple traffic going in both left and right patterns and the Cessna and Diamondstar chasing my a**. I prod. Oh, I cleared you to base, why haven't you turned final? No you didn't - or at least I didn't hear it. Well, turn immediate final now. I'm well past it, but start the turn. I'm still like an angel at almost 3000ft, so gear comes out, flaps (even though we're deploying borderline above safe speeds) - everything and I turn really steep turns to try to help lose even more. I land long and ugly with too much speed - not the best end to a long day's flying.
In my 3 years living here and flying here, this was the busiest I've ever seen it. I used to be terrible on the radio (and in life) when I had to speak 'publicly'. I always botched my calls up. I finally became better at it, but today brought me right back to that feel I used to have when things just didn't work. It's a reminder that flying, air traffic, workload, circumstances do not care if you're tired and have been flying all day. And it certainly will show you who's boss if you get too smug and complacent and familiar with your home turf.
TCAS for christmas, maybe?
What's your worst busy airspace story?
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 28th Feb 2013 at 12:28.
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it sounds like you were pretty busy..are you really sure ATC gave an airliner (MD80) maintain VFR?
while there are some unique reasons to cancel IFR, permitted in rare circumstance, we don't cancel IFR and don't take off VFR (although a VFR restriction climb to certainl altitude can be used).
perhaps someone else was given maintain vfr and the airliner radio traffic confused somehow???
while there are some unique reasons to cancel IFR, permitted in rare circumstance, we don't cancel IFR and don't take off VFR (although a VFR restriction climb to certainl altitude can be used).
perhaps someone else was given maintain vfr and the airliner radio traffic confused somehow???
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The "American" line was just generic, but he gave numerous airlines "maintain VFR" at IFR levels, and one I remember distinctively at 11000ft. But he did also say he'd have further clearance for them soon as they came up on radar. I remember Westjet getting similar clearance (it was very busy on the frequency) and I know they fly into Palm Springs from Vancouver with their 737's. Allegiant also flies MD80's out of Palm Springs plus a few smaller regional jets. I don't know how they took off - I'm assuming they departed on a standard SID and then were left "hanging" at their clearance limit. I'm not instrument rated, so don't know exactly what the procedures are in these cases. Controller did mention that his low level radar was the one not working, and as they got higher he started picking them up. It's surrounded by 11000ft mountains, so it could have been the case that he was blind up to that level. The whole thing was very odd. But then as I passed Banning Pass (which is a section you never get radar coverage in even when it's working) and got picked up on the other side, that's when it really got busy.
What is the procedure when radar is down anyway? It obviously happens from time to time.
Thanks 172driver - let's go fly some day!
What is the procedure when radar is down anyway? It obviously happens from time to time.
Thanks 172driver - let's go fly some day!
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 28th Feb 2013 at 21:21.
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Mine was a pretty straight-forward one. In approach, I casually look over my left shoulder as I spotted a little balck something moving in parallel with me, both of us a no more than 1000ft over the airstrip and probably only 20s from landing. And gliding merrily alongside me, at no more than 40m horizontal, was a.... parachuter.
He (she) was playing with fire, there. I let tower know, they said they'll "collect and inform" him appropriately as soon as he was down. Don't know what happened, but got me pretty flustered....
He (she) was playing with fire, there. I let tower know, they said they'll "collect and inform" him appropriately as soon as he was down. Don't know what happened, but got me pretty flustered....
Big Sky theory.
I like a little tootle round the basin usually non radio apart from the LAX SFR. Never had a problem. Since the owner of the plane got traffic on the Garmin 430 it scares me stupid. Especially if I do even a vaguely sharp turn and it reognises my own plane as traffic at 0 distance 0 feet.
In the 14 years I have been here the nearly all the mid airs have been at obvious spots like the Newhall Pass , low level over the breakwater at Long Beach and strangely at Corona (once I was there and 4 called on the 45 all at the same time since which time I have avoided it).
Now returning to the field at Sherburn around 3.30 on a nice day in the winter there is something to worry about.
I like a little tootle round the basin usually non radio apart from the LAX SFR. Never had a problem. Since the owner of the plane got traffic on the Garmin 430 it scares me stupid. Especially if I do even a vaguely sharp turn and it reognises my own plane as traffic at 0 distance 0 feet.
In the 14 years I have been here the nearly all the mid airs have been at obvious spots like the Newhall Pass , low level over the breakwater at Long Beach and strangely at Corona (once I was there and 4 called on the 45 all at the same time since which time I have avoided it).
Now returning to the field at Sherburn around 3.30 on a nice day in the winter there is something to worry about.
Last edited by sherburn2LA; 2nd Mar 2013 at 05:35.
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I was crossing Donny cas once when every man and his dog was flying. I'd asked for a VFR crossing although it was very claggy, it was good enough to dodge around the clouds. After getting a dozen or so crossing contacts in about two minutes from an obviously 'concentrating' controller he asked me to remain at my altitude to maintain seperation from another contact.
This would put me IMC so I called 'Present altitude puts me India Mike in 30 seconds, request change of flight plan to IFR.'
'G-*** remain VFR but cleared IMC'.
Still got to figure that one out....
This would put me IMC so I called 'Present altitude puts me India Mike in 30 seconds, request change of flight plan to IFR.'
'G-*** remain VFR but cleared IMC'.
Still got to figure that one out....
I always file IFR through hi density airspace, it sure makes things much easier.
Adam, I think your experience was God's way of saying "finish your IFR rating already ! "
Adam, I think your experience was God's way of saying "finish your IFR rating already ! "
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 4th Mar 2013 at 02:46.
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Tell me about it, BPF. Can't wait to finish that thing. I just need to hook up the second com (it's already in) to the VOR and I'm good to go.
