Clarification please - joining the circuit
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Pace
Given that the OP states the published information says
I do not think joining R Downwind, with a L Hand Circuit in Force, is
either safe or legal.
A pilot may vary a published approach - that is their decision and hence
added responsibility: So they should know where any other aircraft are
and what they are doing; and ensure that other aircraft are aware of
where they are and their intentions.
Therefore it must be certain that there are no non-radio aircraft operating
near the airfield.
To me the above means you can elect, for example, a Base or Final join,
rather than a published Overhead join.
It doe not mean it is legal to join R Base when a L Hand Circuit is in force
and, in my opinion this would be highly dangerous: Aircraft Head On are
the most difficult to see and on Base a pilot will be checking Final (in
case they need to give way to traffic on a Straight In) and the Runway
in order to judge their own turn on to Final.
An airfield is likely to be the busiest part of even a "deserted sky"
The OP was not a Pax. He was paying to be Checked Out.
(Am assuming the Instructor was not doing it for love)
He also states this was his first flight at this airfield (and indeed in the UK)
The OP was not happy with the join suggested by his Instructor; so much
so, he says, that he refused to fly it.
So:
Deadside Join suggested that was absolutely contrary to published procedures
(and possibly dangerous given "parachuting was taking place")
R Hand Circuit flown when L Hand Circuit in force.
Above suggests poor airmanship to me.
Above suggests poor instruction to me - and not the Check Out that
was being paid for.
you will in all circumstances fly the published procedure regardless in a non controlled airfield ?
under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed
either safe or legal.
A pilot may vary a published approach - that is their decision and hence
added responsibility: So they should know where any other aircraft are
and what they are doing; and ensure that other aircraft are aware of
where they are and their intentions.
Therefore it must be certain that there are no non-radio aircraft operating
near the airfield.
To me the above means you can elect, for example, a Base or Final join,
rather than a published Overhead join.
It doe not mean it is legal to join R Base when a L Hand Circuit is in force
and, in my opinion this would be highly dangerous: Aircraft Head On are
the most difficult to see and on Base a pilot will be checking Final (in
case they need to give way to traffic on a Straight In) and the Runway
in order to judge their own turn on to Final.
Even in this deserted sky you will add to time cost and pax comfort in
Unneeded turns ! Amazing!!!
Unneeded turns ! Amazing!!!
The OP was not a Pax. He was paying to be Checked Out.
(Am assuming the Instructor was not doing it for love)
He also states this was his first flight at this airfield (and indeed in the UK)
The OP was not happy with the join suggested by his Instructor; so much
so, he says, that he refused to fly it.
So:
Deadside Join suggested that was absolutely contrary to published procedures
(and possibly dangerous given "parachuting was taking place")
R Hand Circuit flown when L Hand Circuit in force.
Above suggests poor airmanship to me.
In this case it appears that the Instructor demonstrated (with no
explanations or caveats) that it is perfectly OK to ignore the
published local procedures if one wishes.
explanations or caveats) that it is perfectly OK to ignore the
published local procedures if one wishes.
was being paid for.
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under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed
I also note the distinction between a pilot being checked out/under training and the carrying of PAX where you are trying to make the flight as short and smooth as possible as well as trying to mix a fast twin in with slow Cessna 150s.
Flying into say Gloucester where there is a standard join in a twin it was very rare to fly the standard join.
Atc where possible preferred fast aircraft to join left or right base or ideally straight in with a request to call at 4 miles.
Obviously Gloucester have ATC
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Our CFI insists that if there is a LH circuit in operation, then no turns to the right should be made within the ATZ. (Similarly of there is a RH circuit no LH turns). Much like on a motorway, you're much less likely to hit something travelling in the same direction. A/G service FYI.
Given we can all miss traffic, I find it quite concerning to hear pilots considering shortcuts, especially if it is common practice.
Given we can all miss traffic, I find it quite concerning to hear pilots considering shortcuts, especially if it is common practice.
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Carobets
So you are at a deserted airport with no one on the radio other than the FIS guy.
On a southerly runway with left hand circuits you need to depart to the west but turn east ??? Why???
Common sense should rule not moronic compliance
Its not a controlled airport!!!
Just make your intentions clear and keep your eyes open! there is far more threat with a collision making unneeded blind 90 degree turns mixing high and low wing aircraft.
Pace
So you are at a deserted airport with no one on the radio other than the FIS guy.
On a southerly runway with left hand circuits you need to depart to the west but turn east ??? Why???
Common sense should rule not moronic compliance
Its not a controlled airport!!!
Just make your intentions clear and keep your eyes open! there is far more threat with a collision making unneeded blind 90 degree turns mixing high and low wing aircraft.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 25th Feb 2013 at 16:37.
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Our CFI insists that if there is a LH circuit in operation, then no turns to the right should be made within the ATZ.
So you are at a deserted airport with no one on the radio other than the FIS guy.
On a southerly runway with left hand circuits you need to depart to the west but turn east ???
On a southerly runway with left hand circuits you need to depart to the west but turn east ???
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That would sound correct ... unless of course as permitted by ATC.
Not a guy in the office running a FIS on a handheld!
Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th Feb 2013 at 13:04.
Pace
I thought that this had been flogged to death by now!
I do not quite understand your exclamation, emphasising Wombat's point...
when you are arguing for variable circuit directions where there is no ATC.
Does this help? UK Rule 12 (which is a regulation) and which does not specify that it applies only to inbound aircraft. And after all, it's only common sense ... isn't it?
2 s
I thought that this had been flogged to death by now!
I do not quite understand your exclamation, emphasising Wombat's point...
But that is the key permitted by Air Traffic CONTROL
Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?
Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
12 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.
12 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.
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Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?
No, just wait until you're clear of the ATZ before turning west, not difficult
Last edited by maxred; 26th Feb 2013 at 15:09.
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Where is a regulation which says you must comply with a circuit procedure OCAS ?
Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
12.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall—
(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.
Also, the CAA VFR Guide indicates that this is valid particularly for aerodromes outside of controlled airspace:
Flight in the Vicinity of an Aerodrome
The purpose of these paragraphs is to give guidance to pilots and operators at aerodromes located outside Controlled Airspace and is concerned primarily with the application of Rule 12 and Rule 45 of the UK Rules of the Air Regulations.
Based on this, I think you'll find that there are regulations which require you to conform to the circuit. The question is, will you ever be picked up on it? The FI I flew with had never been questioned about his particular join and probably never will be - after all, where there's no prosecutioner, there's no judge and jury - however I can't help but be concerned when I hear people talking about flying against the traffic pattern, even in an empty circuit.
If I may refer to your previous post:
So you are at a deserted airport with no one on the radio other than the FIS guy.
So what do we do here then. A or B. Toss a coin?
(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
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So what do we do here then. A or B. Toss a coin?
(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
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Conform to a pattern formed by other aircraft Intending to land ?
Wow that is totally ambiguous statement !So no traffic intending to land do your own thing! if your the lead aircraft intending to land everyone else has to follow your pattern whatever that is sounds fun though
could just see some nice 8 pattern circuits just to keep everyone on their toes 
Pace
Wow that is totally ambiguous statement !So no traffic intending to land do your own thing! if your the lead aircraft intending to land everyone else has to follow your pattern whatever that is
sounds fun though could just see some nice 8 pattern circuits just to keep everyone on their toes Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th Feb 2013 at 18:00.
The inclusion of the word 'AND' suggests that you make all turns to the left regardless of circuit direction. My turn to .
These rules date from non-radio days when airfields were just that, fields.
You took off and landed into wind. I see airships are still included.
.These rules date from non-radio days when airfields were just that, fields.
You took off and landed into wind. I see airships are still included.
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The inclusion of the word 'AND' suggests that you make all turns to the left regardless of circuit direction.
Note the second part of b) - this states "unless ground signals otherwise indicate." - that means that (eg) in the signal square on the ground you could expect to see the sign for a right hand circuit if a right hand circuit was in use. In such a case, turns would be to the right. Otherwise all turns are made to the left.
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2 sheds
There are things which happen and things which should happen This post came about because an instructor made a non standard join in an uncontrolled airfield meaning no ATC!
I purely stated that with more experienced pilots such non standard joins often happen perfectly safely for one reason or another. That is fact and not bad airmanship!
Where it states "under no circumstances" then I agree the instructor should abide by that. He was clearly wrong to ignore that requirement.
Where there are procedures for not overflying sensitive areas or into parachute zones I also agree with that!
Common sense comes into the equation and we are not back in the 1940s when some of these guidances were formed! I stress guidances as they are hardly regulations which would stand up to detailed Legal scrutiny!
Nowadays non radio aircraft are rare in the past common place! Obviously any aircraft flying a non standard join has to be good visual and give priority to other aircraft radio or non radio.
Far more important in my view with modern GPS systems in airfields with NO ATC is for good communication between aircraft and detailed position reports as well as keeping unneeded blind 90 degree turns between high and low wing aircraft kept to a minimum ( Hence my opposition to an equally archaic and outdated overhead join)
Pace
There are things which happen and things which should happen This post came about because an instructor made a non standard join in an uncontrolled airfield meaning no ATC!
I purely stated that with more experienced pilots such non standard joins often happen perfectly safely for one reason or another. That is fact and not bad airmanship!
Where it states "under no circumstances" then I agree the instructor should abide by that. He was clearly wrong to ignore that requirement.
Where there are procedures for not overflying sensitive areas or into parachute zones I also agree with that!
Common sense comes into the equation and we are not back in the 1940s when some of these guidances were formed! I stress guidances as they are hardly regulations which would stand up to detailed Legal scrutiny!
Nowadays non radio aircraft are rare in the past common place! Obviously any aircraft flying a non standard join has to be good visual and give priority to other aircraft radio or non radio.
Far more important in my view with modern GPS systems in airfields with NO ATC is for good communication between aircraft and detailed position reports as well as keeping unneeded blind 90 degree turns between high and low wing aircraft kept to a minimum ( Hence my opposition to an equally archaic and outdated overhead join)
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 27th Feb 2013 at 12:34.
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Standard Overhead Join...
Steve
My 2 cents for what it's worth:
Also, there's an app that may be of interest to you, it's called ApproBASE and you can find it in the App Store. The app helps pilots in the visualise their vfr approach, join and landing at airfields.
It's a quick and easy way for the pilot to generate clear, generic diagrams of the runway and circuit layout for any airfield. Animations illustrate the join path and each leg of the circuit pattern through to landing, helping to provide the pilot with the information required to safely navigate and execute a join to any point in the circuit. Hope it helps.
My 2 cents for what it's worth:
- Always read and follow the instructions on the plate if you have one.
- Always turn in the direction of the circuit
- Always seek clarification if unsure.
- Never go against traffic!
- Never use the deadside if there isn't one
Also, there's an app that may be of interest to you, it's called ApproBASE and you can find it in the App Store. The app helps pilots in the visualise their vfr approach, join and landing at airfields.
It's a quick and easy way for the pilot to generate clear, generic diagrams of the runway and circuit layout for any airfield. Animations illustrate the join path and each leg of the circuit pattern through to landing, helping to provide the pilot with the information required to safely navigate and execute a join to any point in the circuit. Hope it helps.
