Rumour
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Rumour
I heard a couple of weeks ago that there had been a change to the VFR rules, appartently you can go above cloud (outta sight of surface), I disregarded this as someone not knowing what they were saying (how can you navigate visually without being able to see anything). I then heard this again a couple of days ago and it just made me wonder. I dont think there is any truth to it but just incase, replies welcome. What do you know?
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You can fly above a layer of cloud without surface in sight during a VFR flight, I'm pretty sure of that. But, doing that means you cant assure a safe visual decent clear of the cloud layer when you reach your destination which equals suicide surely?
) Of course you must be certain that you are able to descend at your destination and alternates.
You can fly above a layer of cloud without surface in sight during a VFR flight, I'm pretty sure of that. But, doing that means you cant assure a safe visual decent clear of the cloud layer when you reach your destination which equals suicide surely?
An ATP-rated friend of mine did a couple of hundred miles VFR on top last summer in a fast aerobatic aircraft with no gyro instruments. He did have on-board weather on his portable GPS and a cloud free desert ahead. When asked what he'd do in the event of an engine failure, the answer was "I'd jump out" Do they train you for that when you get your ATP?
Last edited by Silvaire1; 12th Feb 2013 at 22:26.
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You don't say which country's rules that apply to you.
It doesn't make much difference anyway as VFR out of sight of the surface has always been permitted subject to minimum separation from cloud and depending on the class of airspace.
VFR is there to allow you to maintain separation from traffic and terrain by visual means and has no relevance to being able to navigate visually.
Licence privileges without an instrument qualification may require you to remain in sight of the surface and there may be may be some difference in the specific requirements of EASA vs JAR that I haven't read up on. But licence privileges aren't the same as flight rules.
It doesn't make much difference anyway as VFR out of sight of the surface has always been permitted subject to minimum separation from cloud and depending on the class of airspace.
VFR is there to allow you to maintain separation from traffic and terrain by visual means and has no relevance to being able to navigate visually.
Licence privileges without an instrument qualification may require you to remain in sight of the surface and there may be may be some difference in the specific requirements of EASA vs JAR that I haven't read up on. But licence privileges aren't the same as flight rules.
At least over here, VFR on top is an IFR clearance where the pilot maintains his own clearance from other traffic, terrain and clouds. VFR over the top is when a VFR pilot flys over a cloud layer.
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The above posts need to mention the country in question, otherwise they are meaningless!
In the UK, and all of Europe AFAIK, the holder of a JAA (now EASA) PPL can fly VFR above a solid overcast, as of April 2012.
Before that date, UK JAA PPL holders had to be in sight of the surface (exactly what that meant was never defined in the law).
The ability to fly VFR above a solid overcast is a basic ICAO position, worldwide.
How you climb up and down while maintaining VFR is another matter.
In the UK, and all of Europe AFAIK, the holder of a JAA (now EASA) PPL can fly VFR above a solid overcast, as of April 2012.
Before that date, UK JAA PPL holders had to be in sight of the surface (exactly what that meant was never defined in the law).
The ability to fly VFR above a solid overcast is a basic ICAO position, worldwide.
How you climb up and down while maintaining VFR is another matter.
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Unless you have an IMCr or IR(R) in the EASA world, personally I wouldnt suggest going on top of cloud unless they are clearly scattered and and remain so in the area you are flying (in front and behind). I think it's unsafe to be on top, in case the clouds do become overcast or you have cloud in front of you which you cant outclimb, and then you have no legal way (or practical experience) to go through those clouds back into a place where you can see the ground. As soon as you're qualified, start training for the IR(R) and then you can safely fly 'on top' and have the navigational skills to be able to deal with it as well.
Prior to EASA, all UK-issued pilot licences without IRs or IMCRs included Air Navigation Order defined VFR limitations which were more restrictive than ICAO limitations.
When this so-called 'safety agency' bludgeoned its unwelcome presence onto the UK scene, all valid JAR pilot licences were 'deemed' to be incompliance with Part-FCL. A corollary of this being that the previous restrictions no longer applied to JAR-FCL or Part-FCL licences. Hence holders of such licences which do not include instrument privileges may now fly down to ICAO VFR limits.
However, pilots with 'legacy' UK PPLs or NPPLs remain restricted to the ANO VFR minima appropriate to their licences.
When this so-called 'safety agency' bludgeoned its unwelcome presence onto the UK scene, all valid JAR pilot licences were 'deemed' to be incompliance with Part-FCL. A corollary of this being that the previous restrictions no longer applied to JAR-FCL or Part-FCL licences. Hence holders of such licences which do not include instrument privileges may now fly down to ICAO VFR limits.
However, pilots with 'legacy' UK PPLs or NPPLs remain restricted to the ANO VFR minima appropriate to their licences.
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piperarcher, that is quite an excellent piece of advice.
I have often found when I'm on top that the cloud just keeps going up and before long I'm starting to worry about airways. I have an IMCr and would hate to be up there without having the skills to let-down safely.
I have often found when I'm on top that the cloud just keeps going up and before long I'm starting to worry about airways. I have an IMCr and would hate to be up there without having the skills to let-down safely.
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2high2fastagain absolutely we British decided on have an IMC and the rest of the world allowed VFR on top on a basic license 50 years ago dangerous I say. But hang on it works for them, perhaps we are just not up to it
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2high2fast
Not really much to do with the thread but just a point to make! Many pilots could get into a situation which is threatening the safety of themselves and the aircraft.
In that situation you are the Commander of the aircraft and your decision of how best to recover from a bad situation over rides any rules or regulations or CAS!
Yes you will have to answer for your actions and yes you should inform the relevant ATC of your intentions but NEVER get into a situation where you crash due to say icing because 1000 feet above is clear air which also happens to be in an airway!
Declare your problem and what you need to do and you will be cleared there!
Pace
I have often found when I'm on top that the cloud just keeps going up and before long I'm starting to worry about airways
In that situation you are the Commander of the aircraft and your decision of how best to recover from a bad situation over rides any rules or regulations or CAS!
Yes you will have to answer for your actions and yes you should inform the relevant ATC of your intentions but NEVER get into a situation where you crash due to say icing because 1000 feet above is clear air which also happens to be in an airway!
Declare your problem and what you need to do and you will be cleared there!
Pace
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I have often found when I'm on top that the cloud just keeps going up and before long I'm starting to worry about airways. I have an IMCr and would hate to be up there without having the skills to let-down safely.
Is it just me that finds instrument flying very satisfying?
Last edited by thing; 13th Feb 2013 at 16:51.
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I would only add that some may hold on to their life CAA licenses - you will remain restricted to in sight of the surface.
There are plenty of opportunities to fly safely over / on top, but as ever experience is everything and as many opportunities to get "caught out".
At least with the base being at a good height and tops not too far above these days most PPL's should be able to manage a controlled descent on instruments, the problems start when the base and the ground close in, or the descent through IMC becomes longer. If you are climbing to stay on top and / or there is any indication the base is descending thinking very carefully about your next course of action. Equally monitor your destination through out the flight.
There are plenty of opportunities to fly safely over / on top, but as ever experience is everything and as many opportunities to get "caught out".
At least with the base being at a good height and tops not too far above these days most PPL's should be able to manage a controlled descent on instruments, the problems start when the base and the ground close in, or the descent through IMC becomes longer. If you are climbing to stay on top and / or there is any indication the base is descending thinking very carefully about your next course of action. Equally monitor your destination through out the flight.
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I went VFR on top over the Blue Mountains West of Sydney during my training as one of my solo cross country trips. We had actual weather that showed CAVOK west of the mountains. It was fine. Terror regarding VFR on top is a UK thing. Of course you need to be careful.
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thing,
No, it's not just you.
The UK ban on VFR on top may have had something to do with the prevalence of banks of stratus at low level in the UK due to frontal systems making it very unlikely once on top you could get back down. Certainly that was a major factor in my decision to get an IMCR which if anything is more use in the summer - low cloud but no icing risk - than the winter.
Tim
No, it's not just you.
The UK ban on VFR on top may have had something to do with the prevalence of banks of stratus at low level in the UK due to frontal systems making it very unlikely once on top you could get back down. Certainly that was a major factor in my decision to get an IMCR which if anything is more use in the summer - low cloud but no icing risk - than the winter.
Tim
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In most Southern European countries, the VFR cloud ban it quite clear: whether below (if very low) or on top, you can't fly VFR. That's because there're plenty of clear days to fly, so they've limited the risk this way. But try doing this in, say Luxembourg, and you'll never get off the ground.