Restricted Airspace Clearance

[auzzy]

Hi guys,

Something, shall we say is blocking my efforts at cross country planning. My flight plan takes me into restricted airspace. After consulting the enr section of the AIP and the notams, I know the operating hours and heights and I also know I can fly through it with prior permission. My airfield is in Class G so I will be receiving information/basic service.

My questions are: Is this permission received via phonecall or over comms and if so when do I switch to the frequency?

Do I tell the FISO I'm switching to ask for a clearance, does he tell me?

Is this like a MATZ penetration?

Thanks in advance!!

[Whopity]

If the AIP says you can enter the airspace with permission, it must give you details of how to obtain that permission. If its by phone you will need to obtain it prior to the flight. If its an airborne clearance then you need to contact them prior to entry and they may well specify a minimum warning period. There could well be delays as they probably don't man the frequency continuously.

You always tell the ground station when you change frequency otherwise they could notify you as missing!

A FISO will not tell you to do anything, they only provide information.

A MATZ has a specific set of rules, a Restricted Area will have its own published rules, they may or may not be similar.

[mad_jock]

A MATZ has a specific set of rules

Which are exactly the same as class G for civi pilots because thats all it is. Airmanship and courtesy mean that in general you would offer your assistance to the ATS operating it. Restriced areas are just that restricted and if you bust it your in trouble.

A FISO can pass on airways clearances. Which I learned on here a wee while ago and strangley enough a couple of weeks later started getting them regularly from one airport who had just got rid of there controllers. I suppose you could count clearance relay as just information though.

The best thing with these areas is to give them a ring a couple of days in advance and just ask them. Some units seem to take personal pride in how much traffic they can get through, plymouth mil/portland ranges and Tain range for example and others really arn't interested for example the Highland restricted area. There is alot of stuff we don't hear about so maybe I am being a bit harsh.

Don't be put off by the Mil turn of phrase when you intially phone. They have to put that on incase its some other mil type phoning. Most of the time as soon as they find out your a civi and what you want they warm a bit and sort things out. They maybe a bit cyrptic because for somethings they may very well know something is happening that day but don't want to tell you so. So if it gets cyrptic presume that there is something going on that will prevent you going through.

The best thing is to plan two methods one going through the area and one going round. And then load fuel for the highest option and then see on the day. Make your descion point quite a distance from the area then make the call early if you are going through or not. As you become more experenced you can leave it later.

Have fun these sort of challanges make the Nav side of things interesting.

[Fuji Abound]

Where is the airspace you have in mind?

[dublinpilot]

Given that your location is Dublin, all this talk of MATZ is probably not relevant.

You are probably talking about R15 & R16 around Baldonnel. If this is what you have in mind, then it's nothing like a MATZ penetration. More like a class C transit.

If that's the case you simply call them on the radio about 5-10 minutes before you need entry and explain what you want to do.

I've never had a request for transit refused from Baldonnel. You might be asked to route a bit different from what you requested or asked to stay lower than you wished (might help with your photos!) but very unlikely to be refused.

There is a good chance if it's the weekend that they are closed. Usual proceedure is to ask three times. If you get no answer then you can go on through. If you want to be really sure you can check with Dublin ATC or Weston ATC.

If you want to go inside the R23 at the centre around Baldonnel airport itself then that is not so easy to get, and I'd suggest you call in advance to explain what you want to do and why.

dp

[auzzy]

Hi guys,

Yes correct dublinpilot it is r16 and the moas southwest of Dublin. Heres the AIP http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Publ...ENR_5_1_EN.pdf . So we're good after 17:00 in Winter and 16:00 in summer and its ok during weekends but it can be activated with little notice. Dublin/Shannon and Mil 122.00 will tell you if its active. So make the call requesting transit to 122.00 in good time as if it were Class C eg position report: callsign,aircraft,height etc....

And yes thanks madjock, I think having two routes planned are a must!

And regarding MATZ, I'm planning on flying to Manchester Barton and wanted to have an idea of how much a challenge Valley/Mona may be? And of course to find out a MATZ's "trasitibilty" (just completely made that up ) and would it cause any routing problems.

Thanks guys!

[auzzy]

Ps whopity thanks also, understood on the FISO now. I knew they didn't give instructions and its only when I read back my own question do I find the answer pointed out by you. When I need to switch, I tell them. Gotcha!

[mad_jock]

Valley is pretty good but depending when you go the circuit can be extremely busy, weekends no problem. During the week they have loads of low hours pilots in fast jets wazzing around. Its a training base and a bit different to normal mil airbases. The controllers sometimes won't have a clue whats going on and some would say some of the pilots don't either.

So I would definately plan to not get to near that one and to route round it. But if you don't ask you will never know if they are going to say no. Weekends just check to see if they have a flying program.

[Steve6443]

There is a good chance if it's the weekend that they are closed. Usual proceedure is to ask three times. If you get no answer then you can go on through.

Is that true of all UK restricted airspace? I learnt to fly in Germany and was told that restricted means restricted unless you get clearance. If you call 3 times and don't get a response, the airspace is restricted. Reasoning behind this is that you could (theoretically) have misread the frequency, have an issue with your radio etc and could wander into a restricted area by mistake, thinking that 3 no replies means OK to enter / transit.....

[mad_jock]

Thats an irish only procedure to the best of my knowledge if it is so.

It isn't UK airspace.

[G-OE]

Originally Posted by auzzy

Is this like a MATZ penetration?

Getting through a restricted airspace, requires permission, even in air or by the land line before (prefferable) however getting a MATZ penetration is completly different because, technecily you dont need a a clearance.

[Pilot.Lyons]

I was always told off for saying "switching" oh yes...... "Changing" was the phrase i was so sternly advised to use!

[dublinpilot]

Auzzy,

Don't miss the fact that some of this area reverts to Class C under Dublin's control when not active.

And regarding MATZ, I'm planning on flying to Manchester Barton and wanted to have an idea of how much a challenge Valley/Mona may be? And of course to find out a MATZ's "trasitibilty" (just completely made that up ) and would it cause any routing problems.

I'm not sure where you are flying from, but I'm based at Weston. I'm happy to meet up some time and help answer any question you have on planning this trip. It's all very easy, but can seem somewhat daunting if it's your first one abroad

dp

[auzzy]

Yeah that sounds great, I'm always open to some help. Will PM details to you now dublinpilot ps thanks to everybody else who has helped!!

[dublinpilot]

Restricted Airspace

Hi Auzzie,

I didn't get any pm from you.

Anyway my number is 086-8201423.

I'm around most weekends. Give me a shout if you need some help planning the trip.

Colm

[auzzy]

Damn it :)

My notifications weren't working, will call you tomorrow mate thank you!