Converting FAA Part 61.75 to full certificate

[PhilD]

I should really direct this question to the FAA, but I'm likely to get a quicker answer here from people that have gone down this route.

I have a Part 61.75 certificate (based on a JAA licence) with an FAA Instrument Rating attached. I am going to the US to get a 'freestanding' Private certificate.

My question is: is the normal procedure to:
a) get a new student certificate with a new pilot number for the FAA Private training and then have the FAA transfer the IR to it, or
b) do the training on my 61.75 certificate and get this converted to a full FAA Private with the same number?

Option (a) is more straightforward for the flying school as I am effectively a vanilla student. However I would end up with 2 licences that the FAA would need to consolidate into one. With Option B I just have one FAA certificate.

An issue with Option (b) is that the revalidation on my JAA licence has expired, so technically the FAA Part 61.75 is not valid (as the underlying licence is not current). However if I only fly under instruction until fully legal can I use the 61.75 as a student certificate?

Any views before I start a discussion with the flying school and/or the FAA?

Thanks

Phil

[IanSeager]

Last year I did an FAA CPL. I had an FAA 61.75 with IR (US Test passed) that was/is based on my UK CAA PPL. I still have both licences, the IR was put on the new standalone cert. I don't think you can convert a 61.75.

Ian

[awqward]

I don't know if this is helpful, but I had a 61.75 for 14 yrs based on my Australian PPL however when the FAA switched to plastic I had to get a validation from CASA (which I hadn't needed in 1997)....unfortunately my Aussie licence was now deemed unacceptable to the FAA because I had obtained the Aussie was originally based on my Singapore licence....bizarrely they let me change to a 61.75 based now on my UK/JAA licence (which was issued based on my Aussie but doesnt say so on the licence).....anyway the point is I retained the same Pilot Certificate number

(I should have just done the written, got a class 3 medical and got the standalone certificate....but you live and learn!)

AQ

[md 600 driver]

You need to register with the transport authority's (TSB. ?)and give your finger prints at farnbrough

Min 3 hours with FAA instructor this will also include any items you've not been instructed on night ect

Take written exams

Get 3rd class medical (min )

Do flight test with examiner

All can be done in uk

[PhilD]

Thanks for the quick replies - if the FAA IR can be transferred to a new standalone cert it looks like Option (a) is the most straightforward, so I'll go ahead and get a new student certificate for the Private.

[custardpsc]

You don't need a student cert, in fact it makes a mess at the iacra stage when you come to apply if you have a 61.75 already. Just been through this myself this month. Suggest you figure out who is to do your check ride and talk to them, it really does help. The dpe is the person who has the final say on how the form is filled out and what the process is, and 61.75 in this situation is not that common so some dialogue before you present for the checkride would help. Make sure you meet all the requirements, double check, eg, do you have the right night hours dual? I had loads of p1 night but got knocked back at the check ride stage because of a lack of night dual xcountry.

You use the 61.75 for any solo time not a student cert, and no endorsement for solo thus required but it does need to be valid

You don't need the instructors recommendation for the check ride as you have an equivalent foreign licence but you do need the 3 hr training endorsement and the written.

After, you keep the 61.75 as well as your full FAA cert, some confusion exists but that is the case. Not sure about the ir transfer but I believe if your 61.75 states us test passed you will have the ir on the new certificate.

Hope this helps

[md 600 driver]

Custard
Your only allowed 1 pilot certificate if you obtain a full licence your 61.75 should be cancelled. mine was

[ploucandco]

Getting an FAA CPL seems to be the most obvious and easiest way to proceed. After the IR, this should be a piece of cake :-)

Jacques

[custardpsc]

md, I have seen this discussed elsewhere, I will try and find the faa clarification, its clear you cant apply for a 61.75 if you have an existing faa licence but allegedy the 61.75 should not be cancelled on licence issue although some fsdos did. Mine came back but with a hole punched in it. I cant think of a good reason to want to keep it though, any rating or privledge you had on a 61.75 would transfer on issue to your full licence, cant think of any exceptions off hand.

[PhilD]

I'm aiming to have one certificate at the end of this process, I can't see the point of having a private and a 61.75, the question is really about the logistics of getting to one full certificate from the 61.75 I have now. I'm happy for my current 61.75 to be cancelled when I get a Private as long as the IR is transferred.

Custard - I'm interested in your experience at the check ride stage if you think it was a bit of a mess as I'd like to avoid that if possible. Feedback I have from the school is that they would prefer I fly on a new student certificate as that keeps things clean for their side, and I also have the complication that the revalidation on my JAA licence is not current so technically the 61.75 is not valid. If I can do the private on a new certificate and then the FAA can transfer the IR from my 61.75 (and the cancel it) that may be the easiest solution

[MartinCh]

No reason not to get FAA IR with US test passed, into full FAA cert with same class/category of the IR, naturally. I'm talking heli/fixed/twin/single differences, not really your concern.

Guys are right. Nothing precluding you keeping validation even after you have full FAA certificate. Unless there's some HPA aicraft privileges, I don't see much point in keeping them concurrently if in same class/category.

Which leads me to what was mentioned. As of last few years, the very Part 61.75 wording mandates only ONE validation. Meaning one certificate from one country.
I'm yet to read/find out if one licence with multiple class/category privileges counts as 'one'. Definitely not PPL(A) from one and then PPL(H) from another country.

Also, as the 61.75 states, people aren't supposed to apply for it and have it ISSUED (first time, not counting updating address or details etc) if they have FULL FAA cert, which presumably doesn't matter what class/category. BUT, you can KEEP VALIDATION alongside full FAA if you wish so. Do NOT give it up by the declaration if the DPE or Fisdo guy tells you mistakenly unless YOU WANT TO do so.

For example. I had glider validation. I 'gave it up' for fixed wing private validation BEFORE sorting full FAA heli PPL eventually. Oklahoma may probably let me 'redo' the glider if they are nice, but I'm not testing it. They also do not have proper wording for giving up validations, as the wording I signed implied certs after checkrides in FAA system. Anyway..

I have PPL(A) validation with FAA IR(US test passed). Don't forget if you are to use validation or update details on it, incl address or adding IR or twin etc ratings, Oklahoma and ideally also DPE should have 'current' (less than 6 months) letter of verification again. You can use FAA medical which is just fine, if your Euro license is expeired and presumably you don'thave current medical as well (unless Imissed it inyour post).

I burnt my fingers not having valid letter and cost me delays and resubmission of 8710 (IACRA went nuts with FAA CPL heli and PPL validation and adding IR to validation, giving me print out of COMMERCIAL fixed wing, haha) due to the verification letter not done recently. Even if one exercises privileges of validation on checkride for CPL, the verification letter should be valid from what I read recently after I made the mistake. Yeah. I'm sure you bear all that in mind.

The school telling you to use student pilot cert, just wants to cover their ass.
No reason not to use the validation if you can. You probably can't, but make sure you get student pilot medical paper then. Else it's visit to FSDO or doctor for one. Unless you got old student medical from less than 5 years at the time you'd be doing the training. Too much headache, just get new one in case it's not gonna work.

OH, btw, FAA isn't that concerned about Flight review currency on foreign licence as long as you're FAA flight review current if you're 'only' flying N-reg.

One more thing. If you're after FAA PIC time, you better use alidation after flight review when you arrive to the school, if you can. That way you can log training AND PIC handling controls. Some CPL requirements 61.129 have PIC or acting/performing duties of PIC. For private, no biggie, though.

[custardpsc]

Phil - two things about the checkride - one is that IACRA spat the dummy at me having a 61.75 on the system (validity immaterial) and a student cert at the same time. I naievely thought that a student cert was a good idea for similar reasons to you. It wasn't. It caused the DPE to call the fsdo to see how to unravel it and he did say, why did you think you needed a student cert when you already have a licence (meaning 61.75). Secondly - be right on top of the hours and other requirements before you go near the check ride. Whilst foreign training is accepted without question, do make sure you have the relevant flights postit noted or similar so you can find them and prepare to show the DPE on google maps where the places were. Night dual 100m x-country means just that. I had tons of night solo long x-c but my dual flights weren't long enough. Also - they will expect to see instructors endorsements against dual flights and thankfully I had got the school to stamp my logbook saying that entries relating to that school were verified as correct which was enough to convince the DPE.

I just reread your post - I think i missed something the first time around. When you say your jar licence is not valid, do you mean you didn't renew it after 5 years or that you dont have a current c of t or current c of e? Currency and validity are two different things as far as 61.75 is concerned. If your licence is issued and in date and just that you haven't flown recently that is not a problem for the 61.75. Foreign validation is about making sure you have a licence that complies with ICAO and it is not revoked or cancelled. I have a UK National PPL with no expiry date so it is not an issue to me, it is lifetime valid. Of course I may not be current, but that does NOT affect the 61.75 validity. You will need US currency for sure, and your first step should be a BFR. IIRC you can simply gain the USA medical and use that, regardless of expiry of your foreign medical but that needs looking into to be sure. You will need a US medical to use the privileges of your standalone licence but I am pretty sure you can use your 61.75 with either a valid foreign medical or a FAA medical upto and including the checkride. Short answer is that the simplest route is to use your 61.75 and get a FAA med without student cert. You won't then need a validation letter etc. There are further complications if you are just going to do the checkride without training/TSA, but if you are already planning to do the TSA requirements, get the M1 visa etc then stick with it, just use the credit card 61.75 you have (its not paper, right??) and a FAA med as the most straightforward route.

As a matter of interest, why are you taking the private checkride when you have a 61.75? Plenty of good reasons, just curious as to what yours is ! I did it to avoid needing TSA on my commercial, but also so that I can get a canadian licence which is a straight free issue (not a 61.75 type process) if you have a FAA standalone.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask more

Concerning the surrender or not of 61.75s - see below

FSIMS Document Viewer
4) A person may obtain a U.S. pilot certificate without relying on his/her foreign pilot license by accomplishing the required training, instructor endorsements, aeronautical experience, passing the appropriate knowledge test, and passing the appropriate practical test as required by the pilot certification requirements contained in part 61. However, if a person other than a holder of a student pilot certificate already holds a standard U.S. pilot certificate, that person may not apply for a U.S. pilot certificate on the basis of a foreign pilot license (see § 61.75(b)(3)), unless he or she voluntarily surrenders his/her U.S. pilot certificate.

NOTE: A person who applies for a U.S. pilot certificate by accomplishing the appropriate pilot certification requirements of part 61 and holds a pilot certificate issued under § 61.75 need not surrender that § 61.75 U.S. pilot certificate. There have been isolated incidences where examiners have mistakenly required a person to surrender their § 61.75 U.S. pilot certificate when applying for the standard U.S. pilot certificate. In this instance, it is permissible for a person to hold both their § 61.75 U.S. pilot certificate and standard U.S. pilot certificate.

[Ellemeet]

multiple categories counts as one as long as it is on one validation.

[PhilD]

Custard - many thanks for the advice, it seems like you went down the same thought process as me (get a new student cert even though you have a 61.75), but this turned out not to be the best way, so your experience is very relevant to my situation.

To clarify a few points - i understand about meeting and having evidence for the flying/training requirements for the Private. I am in Florida for a week and have flying school time booked to make sure I am completely up to date and have the time logged. I have about 570 hours total but don't have the necessary dual night time so I will need to do this and any other gaps before the checkride.

On the JAA licence, it is current - it needs to be reissued on 17 Oct 2015, it's the Certificate of Revalidation that expired on 30 Sept 2010. If the CoR is not relevant to validity of the 61.75 then it looks like I don't have a problem and can just do the training and checkride on the 61.75. I am doing both FAA and JAA medical next week before I travel and I will get a BFR as part of the training, so it looks like the 61.75 will be fully valid when I start training. I already have the M-1 visa and TSA approval.

Why am I doing a standalone? I have not been flying for a couple of years as I was living in Singapore, and have now moved to Switzerland. I liked the idea of going to Florida to get a reasonable amount of refresher training without worrying about the weather at this time of year, and thought that I might as well do the Private while I am there as I fly in the US from time to time (i'm also doing G1000 training and IR refresher). So it's really just for a bit of a challenge and to give me something to aim at - after all if I can't pass a checkride I probably should not be flying! No intention to add commercial etc, or anything other than SEP. Assuming I get the Private I will just have one FAA licence, no intention of holding more than that!

Thanks again for the advice - I think I am all set. March 3 - Florida here I come!

Phil

[custardpsc]

Welcome. Sounds like a good plan and you are all set. I found that getting up to speed again ready for the checkride really improved my flying and preparing for the oral was probably the toughest part ! Be prepared for aeromedicine questions, LAHSO operations, aerodynamics and airspace questions. Worth looking at what they call areas of special emphasis - these will come up.

I don't know if you have read up on the many checkride writeups that are around but they do help. Also be prepared to do half of the engine failure on the ride down to 500 ft and the rest in the circuit as a power off glide approach. Bit strange that. On the ride they seem to usually pull the power right over a grass strip and expect you to plan a way down to it, with a g/a at 500ft. It really helps if you spend time in the practice area and learn where those private strips are. Also either take an E6B or be ready to do ground speed calcs in your head - you will definitely get a revised eta question on the first part of the ride.

Good luck with it all. Enjoyed mine so much I am going back to california this week to get the commercial done.

[PhilD]

I somehow knew it would not be simple...

I filled in IACRA as well as I could, and even told it and my checkride examiner that I had a 61.75 certificate. I passed the checkride and today got my PPL certificate.....a completely new one! So now I have:
a) a 61.75 certificate with Instrument Rating
b) a standalone FAA PPL with SEP only

I don't want two of them, so now what I want to do is consolidate into one PPL with instrument rating. I'm hoping that this is simply a matter of telling the FAA what I want to do, but wondered if anyone had any experience of doing this and had any tips...

Thanks, Phil

[englishal]

Just turn up and do the training and flight test, it is as easy as that. You already meet the minimum requirements as you would have had to meet them to get the IR issued. The Examiner gives you the paper certificate, and low and behold the plastic arrives through the post some weeks later. Interestingly I see that I have two certificates listed on the FAA website under my name - my very old "based on" certificate with IR and ME "US TEST PASSED" and my standalone CPL with all my ratings.

Really it is not a big deal to do any of this in the USA.

[PhilD]

I've done the training and check flight and I already have the 2 certificates. The issue is that only one (the 61.75) has the IR on it. What I want to do is get the IR transferred to the standalone certificate and get rid of the 61.75

[englishal]

Odd....Mine went straight onto the Standalone CPL after the flight test. The examiner should have written onto the paper one all your ratings, i.e Airplane SE Land Instrument Airplane.

[S-Works]

Was the IR an FAA IR or one based on the underlying licence following the IFP?

If it was an IFP IR then it will not transfer across.

Otherwise as Al says they should transfer a US test passed IR onto the new certificate, mine was transferred to my CPL like that without issue.