Flying on the Continent in March
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Flying on the Continent in March
Hi all,
I have 2/3 weeks in March in which I am looking to head across to the continent and complete a portion of my hour building (probably around 30 hours). I have 2 options in mind:
- Visit some friends in the South of France
- Fly through France, Belgium/Luxembourg and into Germany.
I was wondering if anyone might be able to give me some constructive advice as to any pitfalls I may encounter, for example:
- Any unusual customs/border crossing procedures (I heard there was one such procedure for crossing into Germany)
- Airport Charges; Fuel, Landing Fees, Parking etc. Is there anywhere these are overpriced? Also I believe Luxembourg is cheap for motor fuel, is the same true of AVGAS?
- Any areas which may be wise to avoid for whatever reason; localised bad weather at this time of year, language barriers (e.g. when looking for somewhere to sleep for the night) etc.
All suggestions gratefully received, I was also considering Scotland.
I have 2/3 weeks in March in which I am looking to head across to the continent and complete a portion of my hour building (probably around 30 hours). I have 2 options in mind:
- Visit some friends in the South of France
- Fly through France, Belgium/Luxembourg and into Germany.
I was wondering if anyone might be able to give me some constructive advice as to any pitfalls I may encounter, for example:
- Any unusual customs/border crossing procedures (I heard there was one such procedure for crossing into Germany)
- Airport Charges; Fuel, Landing Fees, Parking etc. Is there anywhere these are overpriced? Also I believe Luxembourg is cheap for motor fuel, is the same true of AVGAS?
- Any areas which may be wise to avoid for whatever reason; localised bad weather at this time of year, language barriers (e.g. when looking for somewhere to sleep for the night) etc.
All suggestions gratefully received, I was also considering Scotland.
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Surely, most pilots would have done these investigations already, (I assume you're a pilot, if you're hour-building?) after making a decision on where they actually want to go.
Failing that, the weather in the UK, at the moment, should give you ample opportunity to conduct a few searches, rather than relying on someone else to do it for you.
Good luck on your Cote d'Azur/Benelux/Germany/Scotland trip..
Failing that, the weather in the UK, at the moment, should give you ample opportunity to conduct a few searches, rather than relying on someone else to do it for you.
Good luck on your Cote d'Azur/Benelux/Germany/Scotland trip..
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What xjr8driver says.
If you're hour building to be a pilot, shouldn't you be doing piloty things like planning it? If you can't even be motivated enough to have settled on wether to go north or south, why not just rent something with an autopilot and fly orbits somewhere away from controlled airspace? Take a good book with you...
If you're hour building to be a pilot, shouldn't you be doing piloty things like planning it? If you can't even be motivated enough to have settled on wether to go north or south, why not just rent something with an autopilot and fly orbits somewhere away from controlled airspace? Take a good book with you...
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You can rest assured my own research is going into this alongside this thread and revising for ATPLs. I can't personally see a problem in using every resource available to me, internet forums included.
I am a relatively inexperienced pilot, and thought someone on here might be able to part with some constructive pearls of wisdom. Particularly with regards to any pitfalls I may overlook with my lack of experience.
I am a relatively inexperienced pilot, and thought someone on here might be able to part with some constructive pearls of wisdom. Particularly with regards to any pitfalls I may overlook with my lack of experience.
Last edited by packo1848; 20th Jan 2013 at 22:35.
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Friends of mine are doing pilot B&B at their Biscarrosse Airpark home.
Its a gated Airpark development accessed by taxiway from Biscarosse-Parentis airfield with fuel, ATC Mon-Fri (& they will speak English
) PM me your email address and I can send you details.
Its a gated Airpark development accessed by taxiway from Biscarosse-Parentis airfield with fuel, ATC Mon-Fri (& they will speak English
) PM me your email address and I can send you details.
Last edited by Jude098; 20th Jan 2013 at 23:24.
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In March I would suggest that you choose the south of France option. Generally, as you head south the weather will get better. The danger with going to Germany at that time of year is that the fronts are moving in the same direction (west to east) as you. If you fly east you could be heading towards a front that has already passed the UK. More importantly, however, is the return trip. The problem is that when its clear in Germany for your departure new fronts could be heading into the UK from the west and you may have to stop in France or Belgium and wait for the front to pass and then continue your trip. Heading south avoids a lot of these problems as you are generally at similar longitudes to the UK so if there is no big front in France it is more likely that there won't be frontal activity in the UK. Even if there is one in the UK it might pass as you are flying north up through France on your return trip.
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Seems to me Packo raised some very good questions here. He may get some additional help on the professional pilot forums but to be honest most professionals (myself included) wouldn't have much of clue where the best European destinations for light aircraft pilots to fly to are - so this was as good a place as any to carry out his research.
Where are the cheapest fuel prices? And where can the best landing fees can be obtained? Which airfields should be avoided because of language barriers etc? There have been a couple of helpful responses already which are in stark contrast to xj8driver's sarcastic tone and I wonder why he bothered to reply at all since he clearly has nothing constructive to say.
For the record some of the most able newly qualified CPL pilots I've come across are those who have achieved their flying experience entirely in Europe; its an easier option to do your hour building in the sunshine of Florida or somewhere similar but in my opinion stick with your hour building plan because there is nothing quite like pitting your wits against the European weather to build your confidence levels and experience.
Where are the cheapest fuel prices? And where can the best landing fees can be obtained? Which airfields should be avoided because of language barriers etc? There have been a couple of helpful responses already which are in stark contrast to xj8driver's sarcastic tone and I wonder why he bothered to reply at all since he clearly has nothing constructive to say.
For the record some of the most able newly qualified CPL pilots I've come across are those who have achieved their flying experience entirely in Europe; its an easier option to do your hour building in the sunshine of Florida or somewhere similar but in my opinion stick with your hour building plan because there is nothing quite like pitting your wits against the European weather to build your confidence levels and experience.
Last edited by sapco2; 21st Jan 2013 at 15:18.
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Packo, if you indicate where abouts in Germany you would likely be heading and what facilities you require (fuel type, length of stay, language capability), I could look at a few potential locations which you might want to land at.
Concerning peculiarities on crossing the border into / from Germany, I am not aware of any restrictions or special procedures when flying to / from Germany UNLESS you are flying outside of the EU or to a non Schengen Member of the EU in which case you have to fly from a customs airport.
If I were you, I would look to fly to a customs airfield in France or Belgium and clear customs there. From then on, you would be flying from one Schengen country to another hence no requirements for customs - although you will still have to file a flight plan for any cross border flight (strangely, you don't have to file flight plans when flying from Austria to Germany or back....)
With regards flying in Belgium, although the airspace seems to mean you would be tree hugging to avoid CAS, if you google "VFR flying Belgium" you'll see that there have been many threads about the Belgians and how they actually encourage GA to fly at Flight Levels, the country seems a nice place for those of us who want to transit it.....
Concerning peculiarities on crossing the border into / from Germany, I am not aware of any restrictions or special procedures when flying to / from Germany UNLESS you are flying outside of the EU or to a non Schengen Member of the EU in which case you have to fly from a customs airport.
If I were you, I would look to fly to a customs airfield in France or Belgium and clear customs there. From then on, you would be flying from one Schengen country to another hence no requirements for customs - although you will still have to file a flight plan for any cross border flight (strangely, you don't have to file flight plans when flying from Austria to Germany or back....)
With regards flying in Belgium, although the airspace seems to mean you would be tree hugging to avoid CAS, if you google "VFR flying Belgium" you'll see that there have been many threads about the Belgians and how they actually encourage GA to fly at Flight Levels, the country seems a nice place for those of us who want to transit it.....
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Packo,
Flying in Europe is a piece of p!$$. If you head into France, clear in via Calais or Le Touquet. My recommendations down the west coast, La Baule (LFRE), La Rochelle (LFBH) and Arcachon (LFCH). South-east Bezier (LFMU) up the Rhone valley to Dijon - chose your airfield.
As Steve says, don't let the airspace chart of Belgium put you off, ATC are fantastic, access to Class B is rarely a problem.
PM if you want any more info.
Flying in Europe is a piece of p!$$. If you head into France, clear in via Calais or Le Touquet. My recommendations down the west coast, La Baule (LFRE), La Rochelle (LFBH) and Arcachon (LFCH). South-east Bezier (LFMU) up the Rhone valley to Dijon - chose your airfield.
As Steve says, don't let the airspace chart of Belgium put you off, ATC are fantastic, access to Class B is rarely a problem.
PM if you want any more info.
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Thanks for the input everyone.
I am looking at making an initial stop in Le Touquet to clear customs and assess the weather for the onward journey. From there plan A is to fly east to Koblenz (EDRK) then Halle-Oppin (EDAQ) near Leipzig, stopping overnight as required. I intend to base myself from there and fly around the local area to use up the hours before making a similar return leg.
Plan B, should the weather prove unsuitable to continue East, is to fly South into France, the route is undecided at the moment. I am looking into several of the suggestions on here alongside visiting friends near Bergerac as I previously mentioned.
The main reason for choosing Germany as a plan A is that both my passenger and I speak reasonable German (my passenger is almost fluent) so I foresee experiencing less language difficulties in Germany than in France (a language both of us have very limited skills in).
Steve - Do you happen to have visited LEJ before? I have a vested interest in the area and would quite like to pay a flying visit (excuse the pun) to the airport whilst I'm there. Do you know if they are GA friendly?
Thanks again guys appreciate the input and any further will also be gratefully received.
I am looking at making an initial stop in Le Touquet to clear customs and assess the weather for the onward journey. From there plan A is to fly east to Koblenz (EDRK) then Halle-Oppin (EDAQ) near Leipzig, stopping overnight as required. I intend to base myself from there and fly around the local area to use up the hours before making a similar return leg.
Plan B, should the weather prove unsuitable to continue East, is to fly South into France, the route is undecided at the moment. I am looking into several of the suggestions on here alongside visiting friends near Bergerac as I previously mentioned.
The main reason for choosing Germany as a plan A is that both my passenger and I speak reasonable German (my passenger is almost fluent) so I foresee experiencing less language difficulties in Germany than in France (a language both of us have very limited skills in).
Steve - Do you happen to have visited LEJ before? I have a vested interest in the area and would quite like to pay a flying visit (excuse the pun) to the airport whilst I'm there. Do you know if they are GA friendly?
Thanks again guys appreciate the input and any further will also be gratefully received.
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Steve - Do you happen to have visited LEJ before? I have a vested interest in the area and would quite like to pay a flying visit (excuse the pun) to the airport whilst I'm there. Do you know if they are GA friendly?
Concerning Koblenz, one thing I'd like to point out is that it's final is extremely short (mainly when Runway 24 is in use and you are on the northern right hand circuit - Koblenz allows both Left and Right Hand circuits dependant on where you have arrived from) so be prepared to go around - you need to cut downwind relatively short to ensure you don't overfly noise sensitive areas and lose most of your height on the base leg..... If you're hungry, have a nice greek meal at the airfield, otherwise if you have the time, take a cruise down the Rhine / Mosel - the scenery around that area is pretty stunning. Oh, and sample the local wines ;-)
As a final point, if you are really going to be flying around Germany for a longer period of time, I would recommend you look at getting the "Landegutscheinheft" - these are two books with vouchers (one for the north, one for the south of Germany) which allow you to land at various airports / airfields max 3 times per airfield in 2013 without needing to pay the landing fee - my fellow pilots and I use it to determine where we will fly to at weekends for a jolly and it saves me a packet.....
The list of the airfields which accept it are here, the costs are €49,90 for each of the books (€80 for both with discounts for AOPA members etc) so if you land at, say, Hannover a few times, the books will pay for themselves.
Unfortunately Koblenz and Leipzig don't participate in this scheme but (eg) Trier and Halle/Oppin do, so they could lend themselves to be alternates as they are close to your chosen destinations......
Last edited by Steve6443; 22nd Jan 2013 at 22:24.
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Thanks for the replies, they're a great help and I'm quickly starting to formulate a plan of kinds.
I would quite like to return along the Ruhr valley, can anyone recommend any airfields along the route? Whether it be for an overnight stop or a quick refuel before making my way back across to France.
I would quite like to return along the Ruhr valley, can anyone recommend any airfields along the route? Whether it be for an overnight stop or a quick refuel before making my way back across to France.
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I would quite like to return along the Ruhr valley, can anyone recommend any airfields along the route? Whether it be for an overnight stop or a quick refuel before making my way back across to France.
If you want to camp overnight, go for EDLB - Borkenberge - which have their own camping site. Both sites are in the Landegutscheinheft North so you could land there without needing to pay.....
However if you want a really nice culinary experience (albeit a little more expensive) with a nice hotel directly at the airfield, look at EDLA - Arnsberg - which is close to the scene of the Dambusters Raid on the Moehnesee - however please note that it is NOT statutory to fly along the Moehnesee humming the Dambuster's March
Arnsberg is also in the Landegutscheinheft, but this time in the South edition along with Halle/Oppin.
This is a link to the Hotel at the Airfield so that you could check availability, from a personal point of view, of all the GA airfields I've flown to, this one is probably been the nicest, the runway is also interesting, sitting on a sort of plateau with an incline when viewed from east to west. If you've got the time, money and inclination, they have IIRC a Red Wing full motion flight simulator to test yourself against 30 degree crosswinds without ruining a perfectly good pair of trousers
Based on you flying from Halle, they are all around 80 - 90 mins away (assuming Piper PA28, C172), from there to (eg) LFAT you'd need approx another 2 hours....
Surely, most pilots would have done these investigations already, (I assume you're a pilot, if you're hour-building?) after making a decision on where they actually want to go.
Failing that, the weather in the UK, at the moment, should give you ample opportunity to conduct a few searches, rather than relying on someone else to do it for you.
Good luck on your Cote d'Azur/Benelux/Germany/Scotland trip..
Failing that, the weather in the UK, at the moment, should give you ample opportunity to conduct a few searches, rather than relying on someone else to do it for you.
Good luck on your Cote d'Azur/Benelux/Germany/Scotland trip..
I hope you find people equally helpful when you have a query.
Packo,
Good luck with your trip. Sounds like it could be a lot of fun!
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Packo says he is a "relatively inexperienced pilot" but I assume has a good bit of training due to currently going thru his ATPL. I have less training (I,m basically a vfr duffer) but thru my membership in the Flying Farmers Assc. I have the opportunity for a 3 day fly-in/battlefield tour in France in June. I have never flown on the continent but was thinking about giving it whirl.
Anybody any thoughts on a chancer like me having a crack at it?
Anybody any thoughts on a chancer like me having a crack at it?
Last edited by piperboy84; 24th Jan 2013 at 16:08.
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Packo says he is a "relatively inexperienced pilot" but I assume has a good bit of training due to currently going thru his ATPL. I have less training (I,m basically a vfr duffer) but thru my membership in the Flying Farmers Assc. I have the opportunity for a 3 day fly-in/battlefield tour in France in June. I have never flown on the continent but was thinking about giving it whirl.
1) Departing from the UK you have to go to a customs airfield.
If you're returning from (eg) France, then don't forget to send the GA Declaration to your local Police force at least 4 hours in advance if you're not landing at an international airport - just google General Aviation Declaration Form or look for GAR09 (hint: you can find it here and instructions are available on how to fill it out correctly and the fax number where to send it to can be found here to download.
2) File a flight plan - although some countries (Austria to Germany and back springs to mind) do not require you to file a flight plan, from to / the UK you will have to file a flight plan for crossing country borders. When you contact FIS, instead of saying where I started, where I am going and postion, I always state postion and "enroute as per flight plan" - they can see where I'm coming from, where I'm going to and usually they'll hand me off automatically to the next FIS if that needs doing. If you've never filed a flight plan, there are websites galore which will assist you with filling them. SD will actually submit one for you.
3) Look for the online AIPs - they're all available to download (except Germany - where the DFS wants you to pay for them
) and print them out. In France, make sure that the location you choose to land at has a tower which has ENGLISH as a spoken language otherwise you might get a shock when you land and are asked for your language proficiency certificate (assuming you don't speak la Francaise - I have heard that the french are becoming very peculiar about english speaking pilots landing at airfields with french radio.....Even if you chose to land at an airfield with english language as a choice, what is also helpful is to write a few choice phrases down in the foreign language and learn them - no, not phrases like "your mother was the result of a fleeting sexual liaison between a baboon and a rhinoceros and smells like an elephant's fart" but phrases like right downwind, downwind, base, final so that you can get a grip on where others in the circuit are.
4) TALK to people. I know plenty of bimblers who take off and believe that using the radio costs them performance - at least 2 knots TAS when transmitting
- so never use it again. The FIS abroad are - well, in the countries I have flown in - quite helpful and will usually help you if a) you are lost b) they think you are going to bust an airspace. Having said that, don't be concerned, you won't be asked for a concise review of Peace and War - I flew to Salzburg, then onwards to Budapest and used the radio 8 times whilst airborne, IIRC. You won't be speaking to people all the time - in my case, it was either to accept a handover or traffic info.....5) Don't forget to close your flightplan at the end of your flight.
6) Oh, yeah - most important: ENJOY
For info, I'm a VFR duffer like you. If I can do it, anyone can. A little preparation goes a long way and once you've done it, you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner......
Last edited by Steve6443; 24th Jan 2013 at 16:57.
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Thanks for the help again, EDLA looks well worth a visit. Afraid camping will be out of the question, we will already be nearing limits once the liferaft, 2 bags etc. are loaded.
Piperboy - Just for the record, I have no extra training beyond my PPL, night rating and the ATPL theory. Wish you luck with your venture if you decide to go ahead with it
Piperboy - Just for the record, I have no extra training beyond my PPL, night rating and the ATPL theory. Wish you luck with your venture if you decide to go ahead with it
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Piperboy - Just for the record, I have no extra training beyond my PPL, night rating and the ATPL theory. Wish you luck with your venture if you decide to go ahead with it
