Deicing for light aircraft?
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Deicing for light aircraft?
So with the snow coming down thoughts turn to one of the winter headaches...
Now usually I'm using an aircraft that lives in a hangar so it's not such a problem at base but nonetheless a lot of airports in this country seem to have no arrangements for the deicing of light aircraft. Which has the potential to be rather disruptive to doing trips that will involve leaving the aircraft outside at a snowy airfield for a few days.
If it's just a bit of frost on a small low wing aircraft it doesn't take too long to just brush it all off. But a larger high winged aircraft, even say a C182 with a few mms of frost or snow over all the wings can soon be a bit of problem.
On a recent flight to Glasgow for example I had this concern, I was told they only had Type II deicing fluid which as I understand it is not suitable for light aircraft because it doesn't break off the wings until 100kts+. My other possible options were to bring my own Kilfrost in a sprayer or try and make some makeshift covers for the wings.
So my questions are...
Is it safe to transport Kilfrost in the aircraft considering it is flammable and could be hazardous if spilled? Do people do this?
In people's experience do many airports in the UK carry type I fluid that one can safely use on light aircraft?
Now usually I'm using an aircraft that lives in a hangar so it's not such a problem at base but nonetheless a lot of airports in this country seem to have no arrangements for the deicing of light aircraft. Which has the potential to be rather disruptive to doing trips that will involve leaving the aircraft outside at a snowy airfield for a few days.
If it's just a bit of frost on a small low wing aircraft it doesn't take too long to just brush it all off. But a larger high winged aircraft, even say a C182 with a few mms of frost or snow over all the wings can soon be a bit of problem.
On a recent flight to Glasgow for example I had this concern, I was told they only had Type II deicing fluid which as I understand it is not suitable for light aircraft because it doesn't break off the wings until 100kts+. My other possible options were to bring my own Kilfrost in a sprayer or try and make some makeshift covers for the wings.
So my questions are...
Is it safe to transport Kilfrost in the aircraft considering it is flammable and could be hazardous if spilled? Do people do this?
In people's experience do many airports in the UK carry type I fluid that one can safely use on light aircraft?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: -11`
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why would you want to fly in a SEP plane in conditions that require de-icing anyway? Just don't go. By far the safest solution.
De-icing fluid goes everywhere. It leaves a great deal of muck in every hole you can think of. Just avoid it alltogether. Take the train.
De-icing fluid goes everywhere. It leaves a great deal of muck in every hole you can think of. Just avoid it alltogether. Take the train.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best way to De-ice is to put the aircraft in a warm hangar.
Flying conditions and the need to deice are two wholly different issues.
Flying conditions and the need to deice are two wholly different issues.
Last edited by A and C; 18th Jan 2013 at 08:33.
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why would you want to fly in a SEP plane in conditions that require de-icing anyway? Just don't go. By far the safest solution.
The best way to De-ice is to put the aircraft in a warm hangar.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How big is your bladder?
Got a right telling off from LBA tower de-icing natures way once.
Also leaving ones IR instructor in the middle of the runway after powering up and rolling forward mid flow is rewarded with terrets levels of swearing. And a Twr controller that can't give a TO clearance due to "pissing" himself laughing.
Got a right telling off from LBA tower de-icing natures way once.
Also leaving ones IR instructor in the middle of the runway after powering up and rolling forward mid flow is rewarded with terrets levels of swearing. And a Twr controller that can't give a TO clearance due to "pissing" himself laughing.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And alot of airlines request Type I as well. If flybe are about the airport it likely to have it.
But....
Alot of the time you will get a rig charge for the sprayer and the stuff costs more than Avgas.
You won't get much change from 500-600 quid.
And the old stuff that used to work was pigs piss. And ask any engineer it was less corrosive than the new enviromentally friendly crap clearway or what ever its called that they use now.
But....
Alot of the time you will get a rig charge for the sprayer and the stuff costs more than Avgas.
You won't get much change from 500-600 quid.
And the old stuff that used to work was pigs piss. And ask any engineer it was less corrosive than the new enviromentally friendly crap clearway or what ever its called that they use now.
Last edited by mad_jock; 18th Jan 2013 at 09:25.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with A and C, but then I would be as I fly one of his ac which is indeed in a heated hangar. Luxury. I had a lovely flight yesterday with temperatures never above -1C.
Tim
Tim
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Nearest Bombardier AMO
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Tower, we operated a machine for a number of years in cold climes, constantly battling with the owners' representatives who felt the cost of washing the aircraft regularly during winter was an unnecessary evil. When the time came for the aircraft to be sold the pre-purchase found corrosion in six belly-panels, within the trailing-edges, as well as underneath the slats. Obscene cost to get it seen to, so much so that the multi-billionaire owners' eyes were watering. Given the corrosive properties of the de-icing gunk, perhaps you could consider viewing the occasional thirty minutes spent with a stiff-bristled brush before committing aviation as morning calisthenics?
Last edited by Doodlebug; 18th Jan 2013 at 09:32.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Nearest Bombardier AMO
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, here's something more more useful:
allwetter, bezüge, allweather, covers, clouddancers | www.clouddancers.de
They should be able to sort you out with some custom covers. Even a large-span gliders' covers take just a few minutes to install/remove. They do not weigh much nor do they take up much space.
allwetter, bezüge, allweather, covers, clouddancers | www.clouddancers.de
They should be able to sort you out with some custom covers. Even a large-span gliders' covers take just a few minutes to install/remove. They do not weigh much nor do they take up much space.
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for people's replies...
Perhaps I didn't make my initial post particularly clear but so far the answers haven't been particularly relevant to what I'm really asking.
I fly a reasonable amount and have access to a FIKI approved SEP and sometimes fly light twins as well. While I don't deliberately seek out bad weather obviously I do like to make use of my rather expensive EASA Muti-IR and answers like 'don't go flying' or 'keep the aircraft in a hangar' are all very well but are not really relevant to me when I'm at an airport in Europe or something on a several day trip and I need to get a load of ice and snow off the aircraft. It may come as a surprise to some that there are actually some people out there who like to use light aircraft beyond a fair weather jaunt for a £100 handburger (although I often enjoy that sort of flying too).
I was primarily asking about deicing for the purposes of removing existing contamination but while we are on the subject there is no reason why one shouldn't depart while it is snowing in a deiced and FIKI light aircraft.
Thanks MJ, apparently not at Glasgow though. I generally have a policy of inquiring about hangars and deicing whenever I anticipate an issue with either ice or high winds and the aircraft will be left over night and my perception is that most airports are not very well set up for supplying suitable deicing fluid for light aircraft. Even if one can get type I as you say it is very expensive.
I was therefore wondering if anyone could share any experiences of airports being about to supply small quantities of fluid at reasonable cost?
Good point but I would only anticipate needing to deice a few times a year so would not have thought that it would be an issue. Also if the aircraft did need cleaning after a flight due to the fluid I would have no issue either doing that or arranging for it to be done. Yes if the contamination isn't bad then 30 mins might be all it takes to remove it. But I did once have the experience of having rain from the previous night freeze solid onto the wings, no way it was coming off with a brush and even with a scraper would have taken a lot longer than 30 mins to brush off and involved a ladder to get to the wings.
All of the above prompted me to ask the question about the transportation in a light aircraft of products like Kilfrost. Is it a definite no-no or could it be a solution to the problem I've already outlined of deicing away from base?
Perhaps I didn't make my initial post particularly clear but so far the answers haven't been particularly relevant to what I'm really asking.
I fly a reasonable amount and have access to a FIKI approved SEP and sometimes fly light twins as well. While I don't deliberately seek out bad weather obviously I do like to make use of my rather expensive EASA Muti-IR and answers like 'don't go flying' or 'keep the aircraft in a hangar' are all very well but are not really relevant to me when I'm at an airport in Europe or something on a several day trip and I need to get a load of ice and snow off the aircraft. It may come as a surprise to some that there are actually some people out there who like to use light aircraft beyond a fair weather jaunt for a £100 handburger (although I often enjoy that sort of flying too).
I was primarily asking about deicing for the purposes of removing existing contamination but while we are on the subject there is no reason why one shouldn't depart while it is snowing in a deiced and FIKI light aircraft.
And alot of airlines request Type I as well. If flybe are about the airport it likely to have it.
I was therefore wondering if anyone could share any experiences of airports being about to supply small quantities of fluid at reasonable cost?
Obscene cost to get it seen to, so much so that the multi-billionaire owners' eyes were watering. Given the corrosive properties of the de-icing gunk, perhaps you could consider viewing the occasional thirty minutes spent with a stiff-bristled brush before committing aviation as morning calisthenics?
All of the above prompted me to ask the question about the transportation in a light aircraft of products like Kilfrost. Is it a definite no-no or could it be a solution to the problem I've already outlined of deicing away from base?
Last edited by Contacttower; 18th Jan 2013 at 10:06.
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, here's something more more useful:
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who did you ask at glasgow?
If Greers says you can't get it you won't be able to.
Although they might have a backpack unit for the ambulance flight.
I am sure I have used type I there before but that was years ago.
If Greers says you can't get it you won't be able to.
Although they might have a backpack unit for the ambulance flight.
I am sure I have used type I there before but that was years ago.
Last edited by mad_jock; 18th Jan 2013 at 10:09.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greers are your best bet. Signature you get the full range of useless up to quite switched on depending who you are talking to. Some bases can be a bit snobbie with props and yet others are brillant with them such as Aberdeen.
Greers is a more local handler and the ramp rats always seemed quite switched on and helpful with things with fans on them. They have a base at Edi if you want to go there as well. The ramp rats at Edi are good as well in my experence which unfortunately is a few years ago now.
Greers is a more local handler and the ramp rats always seemed quite switched on and helpful with things with fans on them. They have a base at Edi if you want to go there as well. The ramp rats at Edi are good as well in my experence which unfortunately is a few years ago now.
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks MJ. I mean Signature Glasgow do have a good reputation I believe and indeed when I used them they were in all other ways very good (as you'd expect for the price!) they just claimed that only type II fluid was available.
One sort of expects that when you are at an unfamiliar airfield when all you have to go on is what is written in the AIP and what the handler is telling you that they should be able to procure whatever you need for your flight...and if they can't get it it doesn't exist. Now in this case ice was not forecast and did not materialise so it was a non issue, but at this time of year it very well could have been one...
One sort of expects that when you are at an unfamiliar airfield when all you have to go on is what is written in the AIP and what the handler is telling you that they should be able to procure whatever you need for your flight...and if they can't get it it doesn't exist. Now in this case ice was not forecast and did not materialise so it was a non issue, but at this time of year it very well could have been one...
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have always used greers because they have there own fuel bowser for Jet A and you can get through thier entrance without having to go through the main terminal. That might have changed.
If you phone Menzies they more than likely had it. I think they do flybe in GLA. Flybe usually request type I as part of there handling contract.
If you ask the Signature in quite a few places for certain services they will say no because its across on the restricted area and also they won't have an account with the rig operator same with high load GPU's as well. It gets stupid in some airports with the links between the different ground handling services.
To be honest you really don't want the stuff near your aircraft. It bloody horrible on a pressurised hull with decent seals. I would hate to imagine the mess of it getting sprayed onto a unsealed spam can. Years later you would be finding dollops of gel.
If you phone Menzies they more than likely had it. I think they do flybe in GLA. Flybe usually request type I as part of there handling contract.
If you ask the Signature in quite a few places for certain services they will say no because its across on the restricted area and also they won't have an account with the rig operator same with high load GPU's as well. It gets stupid in some airports with the links between the different ground handling services.
To be honest you really don't want the stuff near your aircraft. It bloody horrible on a pressurised hull with decent seals. I would hate to imagine the mess of it getting sprayed onto a unsealed spam can. Years later you would be finding dollops of gel.
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest you really don't want the stuff near your aircraft. It bloody horrible on a pressurised hull with decent seals. I would hate to imagine the mess of it getting sprayed onto a unsealed spam can. Years later you would be finding dollops of gel.
To be honest this has been an issue only a few times that I can remember, on one occasion I just left the plane in the sun for about half and hour, another I just spent a very long time with a ladder...and then the sun did the rest while I charged the flat battery for the rest of the day...
As a PPL though often flying to larger airports in quite bad weather I try and think of every possible eventuality and I'm often concerned at the apparent lack of support in general that light aircraft get to resolve issues in general. Hence thinking about this issue...
Last edited by Contacttower; 18th Jan 2013 at 13:38.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Age: 63
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contact use Kilfrost in a garden type spray container and we always carry it in the containers it comes in for use in the Cirrus.
It is a wee bit messy but does not seem to leave any significant residue.
It is a wee bit messy but does not seem to leave any significant residue.
After an interesting low level tour of the ravine at the end of a runway after what I thought was a conscientious mechanical scraping off of frost between rivet lines, I took to carrying a couple jugs of automotive windshield washer. A squeegee with sponge under mesh was also carried.
While it is not an "approved" fluid, once the contamination is off and the fluid has evaporated, who cares.
While I do not know if it has any deleterious effects on aircraft components, it doesn't seem to hurt anything automotive.
My lawyer tells me to add: The stuff is only good for removal; it does nothing to prevent accumulation.
While it is not an "approved" fluid, once the contamination is off and the fluid has evaporated, who cares.
While I do not know if it has any deleterious effects on aircraft components, it doesn't seem to hurt anything automotive.
My lawyer tells me to add: The stuff is only good for removal; it does nothing to prevent accumulation.
Your handling agent info is pretty duff, mad_jock - Greer never had a base at Glasgow and the Edinburgh one was closed and the premises swallowed up by Signature years ago.
