I need your advice regarding volunteering
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Hi Flyaways, I think you should keep on with the volunteering at the club whilst your other job comes allong, at least to see how the first flight goes.
The only snag I see about taking a rear seat, as ballast, is that most PPL training flights are in 2 seater aircraft, with PPL and Instructor only. 4 seater aircraft are only used for post PPLs who are undergoing type ratings, so the instruction will be all about those differences. I have acted as ballast in my training years, but it was a rare occurance, and involved many Touch and Goes, and Stall, Spin Awareness.
I hope you have spoken to all the Instructors at your club, and mentioned that you are available to act as ballast, and also tell the same to the office staff.
Best of luck, and keep reading the books...
The only snag I see about taking a rear seat, as ballast, is that most PPL training flights are in 2 seater aircraft, with PPL and Instructor only. 4 seater aircraft are only used for post PPLs who are undergoing type ratings, so the instruction will be all about those differences. I have acted as ballast in my training years, but it was a rare occurance, and involved many Touch and Goes, and Stall, Spin Awareness.
I hope you have spoken to all the Instructors at your club, and mentioned that you are available to act as ballast, and also tell the same to the office staff.
Best of luck, and keep reading the books...
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Flyaways, I find your attitude a bit disturbing.
You expect to have people put themselves out for you,( some would say "a bit precious")
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
did all your laundry and ironing? cleans the skidders out of the bog for you?
Welcome to adulthood. Grown-ups do this for others, they even change ****ty nappies and clean asses and not just for babies either (senile incontinence/disabilities etc. They get on with it, learn that life just isn't a bed of roses and some really foul jobs just arent well -paid.
Re-dishes...Hot water dissolves grease and kills germs....what's hard about scraping the leftovers into a bin/tipping juices/gravy down the sink instead of your lovely shoes?
At 13 years old, I worked the summer-holidays as "ballboy" on a fairground Bingo -stall 8.30 AM start and close between 8PM and Midnight.....then help put the shutters up and cycle 4 miles home
Lunch was 1/2 hour, AFTER all the "men" had been and invariably it meant egg on toast or something similar as main meals had gone....I didn't whinge or complain or make out it was all beneath me...a quiet period saw me having to clean the Boss' car and he was delighted that I bought an old toothbrush from home to clean the intricate chrome-work that was bunged up with dirty polish....guess what?
I wound-up at the end of the season , in charge of one of the stalls or a kiddie's roundabout, or even in the cash-kiosk building piles of pennies etc.to hand quickly to the "punters"(sixpences for the juke -box)....Yes, it was tiring, sometimes boring, often tedious ,but I saw a lot, learned a lot and was respected by the people I worked for,-My Dad was proud of me (Mum had left home sometime before) I was paid a pittance , worked totally illegal hours even in those days...but I learned self-reliance and independence as well.
Don't act hastily and burn your bridges....I'm sure you can make the job more effective and efficient (the net is your friend-look up "cleaning dishes in a cafe" or "restaurant dish-washing" ) -get creative in your search and learn about food-handling and hygiene requirements. SHOW a willingness to learn and adapt OUTSIDE your comfort-zone. the maturity of attitude and application will make you stand out from your peers- you aren't the only "volunteer", are you? - so be the bright-willing-adaptable-knowledgeable go-getter....even if your direct boss doesn't acknowledge it, others WILL notice ,as another poster commented, it'll come back at the most unexpected times.
If you secure the retail job, the same ground-rules apply- make it your business to know your product/service better than your colleagues If the customers seek you out specifically,or their friends have been recommended because of your prescence, you're doing it right!
Just remember, Rome wasn't built in a day!...I,m minded of an old joke... the Chairman is in his Office with a view over the factory buildings-standing next to him is a young lad. he's talking to a man in an Overall-coat...."I want my lad to start at the bottom and work his way up.....
then this afternoon......"
Wish you luck-remember, I wouldn't waste the time/energy posting if I didn't think you were worth it!
You expect to have people put themselves out for you,( some would say "a bit precious")
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
did all your laundry and ironing? cleans the skidders out of the bog for you?
Welcome to adulthood. Grown-ups do this for others, they even change ****ty nappies and clean asses and not just for babies either (senile incontinence/disabilities etc. They get on with it, learn that life just isn't a bed of roses and some really foul jobs just arent well -paid.
Re-dishes...Hot water dissolves grease and kills germs....what's hard about scraping the leftovers into a bin/tipping juices/gravy down the sink instead of your lovely shoes?
At 13 years old, I worked the summer-holidays as "ballboy" on a fairground Bingo -stall 8.30 AM start and close between 8PM and Midnight.....then help put the shutters up and cycle 4 miles home
Lunch was 1/2 hour, AFTER all the "men" had been and invariably it meant egg on toast or something similar as main meals had gone....I didn't whinge or complain or make out it was all beneath me...a quiet period saw me having to clean the Boss' car and he was delighted that I bought an old toothbrush from home to clean the intricate chrome-work that was bunged up with dirty polish....guess what?I wound-up at the end of the season , in charge of one of the stalls or a kiddie's roundabout, or even in the cash-kiosk building piles of pennies etc.to hand quickly to the "punters"(sixpences for the juke -box)....Yes, it was tiring, sometimes boring, often tedious ,but I saw a lot, learned a lot and was respected by the people I worked for,-My Dad was proud of me (Mum had left home sometime before) I was paid a pittance , worked totally illegal hours even in those days...but I learned self-reliance and independence as well.
Don't act hastily and burn your bridges....I'm sure you can make the job more effective and efficient (the net is your friend-look up "cleaning dishes in a cafe" or "restaurant dish-washing" ) -get creative in your search and learn about food-handling and hygiene requirements. SHOW a willingness to learn and adapt OUTSIDE your comfort-zone. the maturity of attitude and application will make you stand out from your peers- you aren't the only "volunteer", are you? - so be the bright-willing-adaptable-knowledgeable go-getter....even if your direct boss doesn't acknowledge it, others WILL notice ,as another poster commented, it'll come back at the most unexpected times.
If you secure the retail job, the same ground-rules apply- make it your business to know your product/service better than your colleagues If the customers seek you out specifically,or their friends have been recommended because of your prescence, you're doing it right!
Just remember, Rome wasn't built in a day!...I,m minded of an old joke... the Chairman is in his Office with a view over the factory buildings-standing next to him is a young lad. he's talking to a man in an Overall-coat...."I want my lad to start at the bottom and work his way up.....
then this afternoon......"
Wish you luck-remember, I wouldn't waste the time/energy posting if I didn't think you were worth it!
Moderator
Cockney Steve, great post! Particularly the last line - Pay attention Flyaways...
In my collection of old stories, I found one, which I would like to relate.
To preface this story, I will tell you that the work I was doing as the "baggage cop" was was lowly and unpaid in the first place. I sometimes got to ride the flights as a jump seat "passenger" in exchange. This took place back about 1980, when those kind of things were allowed. I worked for Worldways airline, in an excellent job (as a paid employee) for five years, and left on excellent terms.
I looked up the former owner, Roy Moore, only a few years back, and had several very nice visits with him and his wife, before he passed away. I was one of three people invited to give a eulogy as his funeral, with one of the others being the famous Max Ward, of Wardair. Am I ever glad I volunteered, and stuck out the icky work, is sure was worth it!
Here's the true story, which was a part of my eulogy....
Cleaning the holds early in my career
I started my employment with Worldways in 1981. Roy Moore was the iconic airline executive, perhaps to be seen occasionally, but much too important to be spoken to – Mr. Moore was just too important to be interrupted by the employees (like me) whose role could be found in the shadow of the bottom rung of the corporate ladder. For months, Mr. Moore remained the grand master, whose circle never intersected mine.
My duties at Worldways would best be described by what I was called by those who worked directly above me: “Baggage cop”. I was to simply watch baggage. If something was wrong, I was to tell Worldways staff, or Air Canada supervisors, but never bother the Air Canada ramp guys, or the union would file a grievance against me. This went along fairly well for a while, and obviously was working, because flights whose baggage loading I watched, had many fewer losses – this was being tracked. I felt that in some small way, I was important to Mr. Moore’s grand operation.
Along the way, I learned that I could talk to the Air Canada ramp staff, without causing labour unrest, and that I could deal with minor problems with no upset. One recurring problem seemed to be that the nets inside the plug cargo hold doors were not being put up in Toronto, and as a result, upon arrival at the destination, the bags would have shifted, and blocked the inward opening doors. This created hours of delays and difficulty at the destinations, and just had to be made better.
Word came down to me that I was to assure that the nets were always installed correctly. I did not know what correctly was, having never actually been allowed to set foot in the holds of our aircraft. On the next occasion, I asked the baggage handler to attach the net, and he replied that he could not. When he realized that I did not know what he was talking about, he asked me up into the hold to see what he was talking about. Once I understood the reason, all the grunge in the floor tracks, I realized what the problem was. I told the handler to do his best, and I’d find the solution.
I started asking around, and everyone to whom I spoke told me that it was not their job to clean the holds. It turned out that this was one of those jobs which had never been assigned. I realized that it would be easier to just do it, than try to get someone else to do it. I had the aircraft’s flight schedule, so I knew when each aircraft was idle. I went down in my off hours, wearing my dirty clothes, and asked the maintenance chief if I could clean the holds. I got the look of “If you want to do that thankless task, go ahead”. I knew that nobody would ever notice, but the problem would be solved.
The forth of our 707’s was in the former Wardair hangar when I launched into my cleaning task. I was scrubbing in the hold, water dribbling out the door when I heard a thump thump on the outside of the fuselage. I turned off the water, and poked my head out the door.
I was face to face with Roy Moore, giving a group of well dressed guests the grand tour. Our circles were crossing, and I was not where I was supposed to be, and looked pretty sloppy. Mr. Moore looked at me and asked “You’re Watson aren’t you? Don’t you work over at the terminal?” I was surprised that he even knew who I even was. I had the feeling that I’d been caught, so I just explained what I was doing, and why.
Roy smiled, turned to his guests, and said “That’s what I like to see, someone who just fixes the problem. Keep it up.” Before I could formulate a reply, Roy had turned away, and the tour continued.
A week or so later, I was summoned to the office, a place of importance, where I hardly ever ventured. I was offered a job in the flight operations department, assisting in the scheduling of flights. This represented quite a promotion, and I eagerly accepted. After that, my circle intersected Roy’s frequently, and I am a much better person for it. Roy found many ways to harness my interest in aviation, and it was my privilege to work for him.
In my collection of old stories, I found one, which I would like to relate.
To preface this story, I will tell you that the work I was doing as the "baggage cop" was was lowly and unpaid in the first place. I sometimes got to ride the flights as a jump seat "passenger" in exchange. This took place back about 1980, when those kind of things were allowed. I worked for Worldways airline, in an excellent job (as a paid employee) for five years, and left on excellent terms.
I looked up the former owner, Roy Moore, only a few years back, and had several very nice visits with him and his wife, before he passed away. I was one of three people invited to give a eulogy as his funeral, with one of the others being the famous Max Ward, of Wardair. Am I ever glad I volunteered, and stuck out the icky work, is sure was worth it!
Here's the true story, which was a part of my eulogy....
Cleaning the holds early in my career
I started my employment with Worldways in 1981. Roy Moore was the iconic airline executive, perhaps to be seen occasionally, but much too important to be spoken to – Mr. Moore was just too important to be interrupted by the employees (like me) whose role could be found in the shadow of the bottom rung of the corporate ladder. For months, Mr. Moore remained the grand master, whose circle never intersected mine.
My duties at Worldways would best be described by what I was called by those who worked directly above me: “Baggage cop”. I was to simply watch baggage. If something was wrong, I was to tell Worldways staff, or Air Canada supervisors, but never bother the Air Canada ramp guys, or the union would file a grievance against me. This went along fairly well for a while, and obviously was working, because flights whose baggage loading I watched, had many fewer losses – this was being tracked. I felt that in some small way, I was important to Mr. Moore’s grand operation.
Along the way, I learned that I could talk to the Air Canada ramp staff, without causing labour unrest, and that I could deal with minor problems with no upset. One recurring problem seemed to be that the nets inside the plug cargo hold doors were not being put up in Toronto, and as a result, upon arrival at the destination, the bags would have shifted, and blocked the inward opening doors. This created hours of delays and difficulty at the destinations, and just had to be made better.
Word came down to me that I was to assure that the nets were always installed correctly. I did not know what correctly was, having never actually been allowed to set foot in the holds of our aircraft. On the next occasion, I asked the baggage handler to attach the net, and he replied that he could not. When he realized that I did not know what he was talking about, he asked me up into the hold to see what he was talking about. Once I understood the reason, all the grunge in the floor tracks, I realized what the problem was. I told the handler to do his best, and I’d find the solution.
I started asking around, and everyone to whom I spoke told me that it was not their job to clean the holds. It turned out that this was one of those jobs which had never been assigned. I realized that it would be easier to just do it, than try to get someone else to do it. I had the aircraft’s flight schedule, so I knew when each aircraft was idle. I went down in my off hours, wearing my dirty clothes, and asked the maintenance chief if I could clean the holds. I got the look of “If you want to do that thankless task, go ahead”. I knew that nobody would ever notice, but the problem would be solved.
The forth of our 707’s was in the former Wardair hangar when I launched into my cleaning task. I was scrubbing in the hold, water dribbling out the door when I heard a thump thump on the outside of the fuselage. I turned off the water, and poked my head out the door.
I was face to face with Roy Moore, giving a group of well dressed guests the grand tour. Our circles were crossing, and I was not where I was supposed to be, and looked pretty sloppy. Mr. Moore looked at me and asked “You’re Watson aren’t you? Don’t you work over at the terminal?” I was surprised that he even knew who I even was. I had the feeling that I’d been caught, so I just explained what I was doing, and why.
Roy smiled, turned to his guests, and said “That’s what I like to see, someone who just fixes the problem. Keep it up.” Before I could formulate a reply, Roy had turned away, and the tour continued.
A week or so later, I was summoned to the office, a place of importance, where I hardly ever ventured. I was offered a job in the flight operations department, assisting in the scheduling of flights. This represented quite a promotion, and I eagerly accepted. After that, my circle intersected Roy’s frequently, and I am a much better person for it. Roy found many ways to harness my interest in aviation, and it was my privilege to work for him.
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 18th Jan 2013 at 22:08.
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Flyaways, I find your attitude a bit disturbing.
You expect to have people put themselves out for you,( some would say "a bit precious")
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
did all your laundry and ironing? cleans the skidders out of the bog for you?
Welcome to adulthood. Grown-ups do this for others, they even change ****ty nappies and clean asses and not just for babies either (senile incontinence/disabilities etc. They get on with it, learn that life just isn't a bed of roses and some really foul jobs just arent well -paid.
Re-dishes...Hot water dissolves grease and kills germs....what's hard about scraping the leftovers into a bin/tipping juices/gravy down the sink instead of your lovely shoes?
You expect to have people put themselves out for you,( some would say "a bit precious")
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
did all your laundry and ironing? cleans the skidders out of the bog for you?
Welcome to adulthood. Grown-ups do this for others, they even change ****ty nappies and clean asses and not just for babies either (senile incontinence/disabilities etc. They get on with it, learn that life just isn't a bed of roses and some really foul jobs just arent well -paid.
Re-dishes...Hot water dissolves grease and kills germs....what's hard about scraping the leftovers into a bin/tipping juices/gravy down the sink instead of your lovely shoes?
OP, the first thing you need to learn about commercial organisations, of all sizes, is that they will take whatever they can get from you and exploit you to the fullest. Trust me I've worked in a few. When you go into any job you need to think "what's in it for me?". That attitude has served me well in my career so far.
You have made a good start and have an excellent attitude. Work (or volunteering) in any capacity at 17 is commendable and will teach you commercial awareness and understanding of how the world works. However that does not equate to washing up when you interest is deriving work experience appropriate to the career you wish to embark on. What does washing up have to do with flying? Ask yourself, what beneficial experience will you derive? Whenver you go into an organisation in any capacity you need to focus on what you will get out of it, as much as what they will.
As alluded to in my previous post, I did work experience at a flying school as a 14 year old. The work I was given was not glamarous by any means. It was checking in students, cleaning aircraft, assisting with admin duties. This is the type of work you should be doing at a flying school. Cleaning toilets, washing dishes is relevant to people who work in the cafe. Nothing to do with flying.
Last edited by taxistaxing; 18th Jan 2013 at 22:14.
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What does washing up have to do with flying? Ask yourself, what beneficial experience will you derive?
I'm a volunteer firefighter. I thought I should not have to scrub toilets in the fire station, as that should be someone else's job. I was wrong, it was my job, because one day, I came in to find the chief, with 41 years on our department, scrubbing a urinal. So, if it is his job, it must be mine too, and I occasionally now I do it too.
If a young eager kid who asked what he could do in trade for a flight, would not wash my plane in trade, the flight would be short. If he washed the plane, it'd be a good flight. If I found the washroom in the hangar cleaned too, he would have many good flights. (that's why I allow myself many good flights - my very clean hangar washroom!)
17 year olds will go very far in life; a) learning not to think of themselves as too good for any job that anyone else would do, and b) demonstrating that attitude to decision makers, so as to excel beyond the others who will be competing against them for those few extra good opportunities life may hold.
That all being said, yes there is a balance, and no one should be, or feel, taken advantage of either. The reward must be commensurate with the effort.
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Thanks for all the replies. I've read through all of them, even Pilot DAR's life story 
(It was actually interesting 
)
I have decided that I am not going to continue with it because being in the kitchen isn't going to get me exposure to the pilots/ owners. As I said before, if it was odd jobs around the airfield (for example getting rid of the ice in the hangar, sweeping snow off the planes, washing the planes, litter picking etc) then I would have done it as I would get to speak to people.
Anyway, i'm looking for p-t jobs now to fund the flying (i'll get enough money to be able to pay for a few lessons, then i'll start. That way if I for some reason I can't work for a weekend, I'm not going to miss out on a lesson)
There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.
(It was actually interesting )I have decided that I am not going to continue with it because being in the kitchen isn't going to get me exposure to the pilots/ owners. As I said before, if it was odd jobs around the airfield (for example getting rid of the ice in the hangar, sweeping snow off the planes, washing the planes, litter picking etc) then I would have done it as I would get to speak to people.
Anyway, i'm looking for p-t jobs now to fund the flying (i'll get enough money to be able to pay for a few lessons, then i'll start. That way if I for some reason I can't work for a weekend, I'm not going to miss out on a lesson)
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
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So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.
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being in the kitchen isn't going to get me exposure to the pilots/owners.
Waiting on tables, handling the bar, cooking the food, settling the bills and so forth all take training. Training which they're not going to give you just yet until you've proven yourself. And once you get near aircraft, this will only become more complex, as the damage you can do to a plane (and yourselves) is a lot more than the mess you can make in a kitchen.
Have you talked to other volunteers like yourselves that must be around, before you applied? What they did, and for how long, before they got themselves in the position they're now? What were your expectations, what were they based on, and were they realistic?
Your parents probably have made you believe you're a genius on par with Einstein. You can't blame them - it's their job. But the restaurant manager, CFI or school director will see things differently. He'll just see a 17-year old kid with no readily applicable skills/experience whatsoever. He's going to want to observe you for a while before he will start investing in you, to see if that investment is going to pay off.
And the same is going to happen in your upcoming p/t retail job, and probably every other job you land in the future.
I have decided that I am not going to continue with it
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Wasn't going to say anything though.....
There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your
family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.
There's know difference at all !!!!!! Man up !!!!!!!!!
Why do retail and be stuck in a dead end job you already claim to hate? Cause when you've passed your ppl you wont have enough money to sustain an airplane? why not go to college, do something aviation?
Get a career in an aviation job (or something else)and volunteer to pay for your lessons, if you don't later in life you may look back and think ****!!! what have I done why didn't I..........bla bla bla....
Fair enough exploitation (a very powerful word btw) is bad but what we have here is NOT!! in my view.
What you have to look at is (and @ 17 none of us did) The big picture, where will I be in 10 years is a good start.
Don't be a "tomorrow man" Give a little thought to the future FLYAWAYS...
There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your
family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.
Why do retail and be stuck in a dead end job you already claim to hate? Cause when you've passed your ppl you wont have enough money to sustain an airplane? why not go to college, do something aviation?
Get a career in an aviation job (or something else)and volunteer to pay for your lessons, if you don't later in life you may look back and think ****!!! what have I done why didn't I..........bla bla bla....
Fair enough exploitation (a very powerful word btw) is bad but what we have here is NOT!! in my view.
What you have to look at is (and @ 17 none of us did) The big picture, where will I be in 10 years is a good start.
Don't be a "tomorrow man" Give a little thought to the future FLYAWAYS...
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Yes, my life story is widely varied between and 
, but in very large part . But after a lot of effort, it is much better than I would have ever dared to dream (while mucking out Boeing 707 holds). That is due to the kindness, and immense generosity of a lot of people, particularly in aviation. Many pilots and owners...
I disagree. You want to be exposed to the pilots and owners, the real movers on the mainstreet of you path to your aviation career. Those pilots and owners got to be so, in large part because they worked for it. They know what it is to work at something which seems totally beneath you. So while you're doing the work that they can afford to not have to do, they still know it's getting done - by someone. There can be good exposure, even in the shadows.
Fast forward..... you've been doing a super job of washing up for all these months, because you are simply proud to make a good job of whatever you agree to do. One day, you come out from the dark corners of the washing up area, to pick up another load of dishes from the "pilot's and owners" area. They will notice you, and think that for all those months, that job, which they no longer want to do, was done by you. Done well, and with pride. You will be memorable, and someone will make an effort on your behalf. Something good will happen to you, and in an instant, it'll all have been worth it. Or,
You seek your fortunes elsewhere, not a plane or pilot in sight, and become just one of the many 17 year olds, who has a long hard path ahead, to stand out from all the rest of the 17 year olds around...
You did ask for the advice, and you got lots. Of course you can do what you like. But, some owners and pilots here, with very interesting life stories, have noticed you, and took time to reward you with advice offered with their valuable time. If you were where I am, you'd have had a flying invitation from me by now - I just landed from a 10 minute hop.
No one here will actually think the less of you for "moving on" should you choose to. However, some here will believe that you might have passed up an opportunity to stand out in a good way, to exactly the audience you were looking for....
and , but in very large part . But after a lot of effort, it is much better than I would have ever dared to dream (while mucking out Boeing 707 holds). That is due to the kindness, and immense generosity of a lot of people, particularly in aviation. Many pilots and owners...
being in the kitchen isn't going to get me exposure to the pilots/ owners
Fast forward..... you've been doing a super job of washing up for all these months, because you are simply proud to make a good job of whatever you agree to do. One day, you come out from the dark corners of the washing up area, to pick up another load of dishes from the "pilot's and owners" area. They will notice you, and think that for all those months, that job, which they no longer want to do, was done by you. Done well, and with pride. You will be memorable, and someone will make an effort on your behalf. Something good will happen to you, and in an instant, it'll all have been worth it. Or,
You seek your fortunes elsewhere, not a plane or pilot in sight, and become just one of the many 17 year olds, who has a long hard path ahead, to stand out from all the rest of the 17 year olds around...
You did ask for the advice, and you got lots. Of course you can do what you like. But, some owners and pilots here, with very interesting life stories, have noticed you, and took time to reward you with advice offered with their valuable time. If you were where I am, you'd have had a flying invitation from me by now - I just landed from a 10 minute hop.
No one here will actually think the less of you for "moving on" should you choose to. However, some here will believe that you might have passed up an opportunity to stand out in a good way, to exactly the audience you were looking for....
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I am at college still and i'm planning on going further (Either to Uni or some kind of professional training scheme).
I do appreciate that you all have given your advice to me. I've been back and forward on whether to continue or not but I think I probably rushed into the volunteering scheme because of my enthusiasm and the picture that they painted of it.
I know you probably all think I am some stuck up kid who wants everything but isn't prepared to do anything, and I don't think I am 'too good' for washing dishes. I have explained how I would be happy to do litter picking, wash planes, clean hangar floors etc which in my opinion are on the same level as washing dishes, but I feel being stuck in a kitchen isn't going to benefit me. The flying school didn't ask about my qualifications or even look at my CV. They didn't think of me as an investment, but as an unpaid kid to do the chores that the staff didn't want to do. If they looked at CV's they could weed out people who are likely to be a good investment and those who wouldn't be.
Okay so if I stuck with it and did it for a three months I might get some back seat experience or something. If we talk in terms of flying lessons, I would have 3 hours in the log book. If I got a job for three months at £6 an hour (let's use the same lines of two 6 hours shifts a week, total 12 hours) I would have earned £864, enough for nearly 6 hours of flying experience, plus I could get some back seat experience by hanging around the airfield chatting to owners etc.
All in all, the volunteering is only so I can get a PPL and learn to fly. In basic terms it's a hobby and it's unlikely that i'll be making money from it in the future. After I get the PPL how will I pay for the aircraft rental and other costs? I'll need a paying job. If I get a paying job now I can work my way up in it which will be giving me money, so if it all goes wrong and I have to stop learning to fly (Say I had a medical problem which stopped me from getting a PPL) then i'm not stuck without a job. I'll have a job which is getting me money.
Oh, and yes I did get bin juice on the floor (outside), and on my shoe. The bag must have had a hole in or something
(Sorry if anything is wrong here or it doesn't make sense, it's late and i'm typing this quickly!)
But yes, please don't think i'm ignoring you're advice. I've learnt a lot from this thread and you can be sure i'm thankful for you taking the time to post.
I do appreciate that you all have given your advice to me. I've been back and forward on whether to continue or not but I think I probably rushed into the volunteering scheme because of my enthusiasm and the picture that they painted of it.
I know you probably all think I am some stuck up kid who wants everything but isn't prepared to do anything, and I don't think I am 'too good' for washing dishes. I have explained how I would be happy to do litter picking, wash planes, clean hangar floors etc which in my opinion are on the same level as washing dishes, but I feel being stuck in a kitchen isn't going to benefit me. The flying school didn't ask about my qualifications or even look at my CV. They didn't think of me as an investment, but as an unpaid kid to do the chores that the staff didn't want to do. If they looked at CV's they could weed out people who are likely to be a good investment and those who wouldn't be.
Okay so if I stuck with it and did it for a three months I might get some back seat experience or something. If we talk in terms of flying lessons, I would have 3 hours in the log book. If I got a job for three months at £6 an hour (let's use the same lines of two 6 hours shifts a week, total 12 hours) I would have earned £864, enough for nearly 6 hours of flying experience, plus I could get some back seat experience by hanging around the airfield chatting to owners etc.
All in all, the volunteering is only so I can get a PPL and learn to fly. In basic terms it's a hobby and it's unlikely that i'll be making money from it in the future. After I get the PPL how will I pay for the aircraft rental and other costs? I'll need a paying job. If I get a paying job now I can work my way up in it which will be giving me money, so if it all goes wrong and I have to stop learning to fly (Say I had a medical problem which stopped me from getting a PPL) then i'm not stuck without a job. I'll have a job which is getting me money.
Oh, and yes I did get bin juice on the floor (outside), and on my shoe. The bag must have had a hole in or something
(Sorry if anything is wrong here or it doesn't make sense, it's late and i'm typing this quickly!)
But yes, please don't think i'm ignoring you're advice. I've learnt a lot from this thread and you can be sure i'm thankful for you taking the time to post.
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When I was 16 I got a job at a certain cheap sports shop which paid me the handsome sum of five quid an hour. When I was 18 I started flying lessons using nothing but the money earnt from this job. I had my licence in my hand by the age of 20, so although it may have taken me a couple of years it was very much do-able and very much worth it!
Volunteering is great but don't let yourself get used, make sure you enjoy it and don't just do it for the sake of it.
Volunteering is great but don't let yourself get used, make sure you enjoy it and don't just do it for the sake of it.
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Flyaways,
I see that you ask, and stop and think. Excellent qualities in a person. My complements. You will make the best decision. No one here has walked the mile in your shoes. We only have anonymous advice to offer. You have obviously given this a lot of thought, and that's all that anyone can ask of a person. I have never suggested that this particular volunteer arrangement is appropriate for you (because I have no idea).
Therefore, as you see, I offer you my thoughts, I'll try not assert them to [at] you. Keep your mind open, as you obviously do, and you will go far. If you ever go as far as Ontario, look me up, you and I will do some flying....
I see that you ask, and stop and think. Excellent qualities in a person. My complements. You will make the best decision. No one here has walked the mile in your shoes. We only have anonymous advice to offer. You have obviously given this a lot of thought, and that's all that anyone can ask of a person. I have never suggested that this particular volunteer arrangement is appropriate for you (because I have no idea).
Therefore, as you see, I offer you my thoughts, I'll try not assert them to [at] you. Keep your mind open, as you obviously do, and you will go far. If you ever go as far as Ontario, look me up, you and I will do some flying....
Very interesting thread here. My view is you are far better to get a paying job elsewhere to save up for flying lessons. Then you become the client and you decide who and when you fly and train with. Volunteering like you have been doing is for mugs.There will always be people prepared to take advantage of the weak and /or vulnerable. If you want to get some free flying by volunteering ( if you really think you must) better to meet other pilot owners around the club while you are training and suggest to them you would be interested in being a passenger for the experiance and in return would be happy to wash their aircraft. You will probably find some will take you anyway, freely just to help a kid along.Trouble with aviation as an industry is there are far more budding pilots than jobs and employers know that, so, the unscrupulous amongst them take advantage of whoever offers. Look at the scam cadet schemes around as an example. If you only intend being a PPL ( and I would strongly advise you do) stay away from such schemes. Slavery ended even in the land of the so called free over 100years ago.
As with the above poster if you are ever in Adelaide OZ look me up and I will take you flying with no strings attached.
As with the above poster if you are ever in Adelaide OZ look me up and I will take you flying with no strings attached.
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Flyaways, I have some sympathy for the position you find yourself in. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses when you see no chance for improving your lot. A mate and I spent some three years as teenage self appointed weekend refuellers at the local airport, all out of 44 gallon drums with a quart stroke hand pump. Just to be around aircraft, and ever hopeful of a ride. Not once did a local private owner/pilot ever offer encouragement, much less a ride. There were a series of charter pilots who moved through employment at a field based charter company, which had a grand total of one aircraft in the fleet. We helped with washing, oil changes etc and of course the refuelling. These pilots were the only ones who offered encouragement, and whenever they could would take one of us, sometimes both if able, on trips. One pilot in particular went to the point of having us save all the fuel drains in a "special" 44 drum which would then be burnt in an undocumented flight giving us hands on circuit work. The Auster didn't have a second control column fitted, but that was rectified by the old man making one up for us. This was back in the early '60s - a different world to today.
I think the difference in attitude was the charter pilots understood what it was to have stars in the eyes and an ambition, whereas the private pilots/owners were doing something for personal recreation and interest.
The very best of luck on your journey.
I think the difference in attitude was the charter pilots understood what it was to have stars in the eyes and an ambition, whereas the private pilots/owners were doing something for personal recreation and interest.
The very best of luck on your journey.
I have to agree with those here who say you have a bad attitude. If flying is what you really want to do, then you should be prepared to do anything to get it.
I suggest you watch some episodes of Ice Pilots NWT, especially the first series.
They take newly qualified CPLs, with a couple of hundred hours and put them to work loading, cleaning, de-icing planes at Yellowknife in Canada north west territories, in temperatures down to -40. After doing this job for up to 12 months, with NO flying at all, if they have shown they have the right attitude, they then get the chance to be copilot. Oh, I didn't mention that its a 7 days per week job for poor pay..
Could you do that? On what you say here, I doubt it.
I suggest you watch some episodes of Ice Pilots NWT, especially the first series.
They take newly qualified CPLs, with a couple of hundred hours and put them to work loading, cleaning, de-icing planes at Yellowknife in Canada north west territories, in temperatures down to -40. After doing this job for up to 12 months, with NO flying at all, if they have shown they have the right attitude, they then get the chance to be copilot. Oh, I didn't mention that its a 7 days per week job for poor pay..
Could you do that? On what you say here, I doubt it.
Could it be that the washing up is a test? "We've been stung with these kids before, lets give them he worst job we can think of, see how committed he is before we let him near one of our aeroplanes"
I would say suck it up. As someone who worked, hard, for his flying, 7 days a week for below minimum wage, I hate the attitude of "I'm not doin anything relevant, I can't suck up to the bosses, no one can see how special I am".
Nothing comes for free.
Rant over.
I would say suck it up. As someone who worked, hard, for his flying, 7 days a week for below minimum wage, I hate the attitude of "I'm not doin anything relevant, I can't suck up to the bosses, no one can see how special I am".
Nothing comes for free.
Rant over.
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Interesting and varied responses. Albiet some are unecessarily aggressive and personal in their tone, in my view, espescially considering the OP's age. Sadly that's par for the course on this website.
OP I think you've shown the right attitude in seeing this through as far as you have. It's fine to volunteer (and fine to do crap jobs), so long as you are getting the commensurate return out of it (be this payment or experience). Only you can make this judgement in your particular circumstances. In life, as a general principle, doing something for nothing is rarely a good idea (unless you're volunteering for altruistic or charitable motives) as, human nature being what it is, this will tend to be exploited.
If you read a lot of other threads on this website you will see pilots complaining about just that: people so keen to enter the aviation industry that they will work for free (or even pay to work). This is ultimately self defeating as it degrades T's and C's for the whole industry. You will be served well by a "what can I get out of this?" attitude, at every step of the way - mercenary as that may sound.
OP I think you've shown the right attitude in seeing this through as far as you have. It's fine to volunteer (and fine to do crap jobs), so long as you are getting the commensurate return out of it (be this payment or experience). Only you can make this judgement in your particular circumstances. In life, as a general principle, doing something for nothing is rarely a good idea (unless you're volunteering for altruistic or charitable motives) as, human nature being what it is, this will tend to be exploited.
If you read a lot of other threads on this website you will see pilots complaining about just that: people so keen to enter the aviation industry that they will work for free (or even pay to work). This is ultimately self defeating as it degrades T's and C's for the whole industry. You will be served well by a "what can I get out of this?" attitude, at every step of the way - mercenary as that may sound.
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Flyaways,
For what it's worth, I think that you have shown significant maturity.
While some may not agree with what you find icky, that's really irrelevant. You've explained that you've no problem doing other 'dirty' jobs, but this one isn't for you. So be it. You've also explained that you really don't like working in retail, but are prepared to do it to get what you want.
But unlike many your in your position, you didn't just walk out. To turned around and asked for advice before making a decision. You listened to the advice given, even though much of it was conflicting and much critical.
You've managed to evaluate the options in front of you and objectively been able to work out which one gets you closer to what you want (flying lessons and back seat rides) despite the fact that both options have varied and complicated variables. You might have a future in accounting if you ever decided to look that way
Many people your age would be unwilling to take a job that they don't like to fund a hobby they want to do, and would simply expect their parents to pay for it. I suspect many here who have critised you have had some of their flight training funded by their parents, or have children who they have funded their flight training for, rather than expected those children to get a job and fund it for themselves. So well done to you for making it happen yourself.
I think you have a bright future. Best of luck with getting to Uni
dp
For what it's worth, I think that you have shown significant maturity.
While some may not agree with what you find icky, that's really irrelevant. You've explained that you've no problem doing other 'dirty' jobs, but this one isn't for you. So be it. You've also explained that you really don't like working in retail, but are prepared to do it to get what you want.
But unlike many your in your position, you didn't just walk out. To turned around and asked for advice before making a decision. You listened to the advice given, even though much of it was conflicting and much critical.
You've managed to evaluate the options in front of you and objectively been able to work out which one gets you closer to what you want (flying lessons and back seat rides) despite the fact that both options have varied and complicated variables. You might have a future in accounting if you ever decided to look that way
Many people your age would be unwilling to take a job that they don't like to fund a hobby they want to do, and would simply expect their parents to pay for it. I suspect many here who have critised you have had some of their flight training funded by their parents, or have children who they have funded their flight training for, rather than expected those children to get a job and fund it for themselves. So well done to you for making it happen yourself.
I think you have a bright future. Best of luck with getting to Uni
dp