Giving passengers control
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Backpacker, me old china, back on page two you mentioned letting your have-a-go pax preform a loop....please don't!
In fact, I have upset some posters by insisting it is way out of order to frighten first time pax with aeros of any sort.
In fact, I have upset some posters by insisting it is way out of order to frighten first time pax with aeros of any sort.
The passengers know that I'm going to fly aerobatics with them: That's what they're there for. For most of these passengers it's not their first flight in a light aircraft by far - some are even fully licensed pilots. I fully brief them with regards to nausea, G-forces and whatnot. In the air I brief each and every individual maneuver. The fact that I teach them to fly a loop properly at the end of the flight is a bonus - if they can handle it and want to try it. It usually takes them three tries to get it right.
My comment was directed more towards the earlier poster who said he would let his passengers (in a similar situation) perform a roll. As a roll requires a quite complex coordination between pitch and roll control (both for an aileron roll and a barrel roll), I think it's easier to teach passengers to fly a loop instead (which requires pitch control only).
(And I know that last statement is not quite true. Both maneuvers require pitch, yaw and roll control to some degree to come out right. But a reasonable approximation of a loop can be done with pitch only, as long as you don't mind a 30 degree course change. Not so for a roll.)
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Ah yes, proper prebriefing of the passenger.....
Ex USAF radar operator bravely agreed to come with me in a 172 from Florida to Texas and back over Christmas.
The 172 was a rental, in less than perfect condition (what rental is ever in perfect condition???) We had a lot of trouble making his door stay latched before we even took off, therafter pretended it was a Piper and only had one door....
The second thing that went funny was on the westbound leg, from Florida to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, when on approach, with a 727 following, the flaps failed to deploy on very short final. So I remarked, as one does, Oh ****.
Never never never say Oh **** when a passenger can hear you. It spoils his enjoyment of the experience. I am sure you will all take this message to heart.
Happy New Year!
Ex USAF radar operator bravely agreed to come with me in a 172 from Florida to Texas and back over Christmas.
The 172 was a rental, in less than perfect condition (what rental is ever in perfect condition???) We had a lot of trouble making his door stay latched before we even took off, therafter pretended it was a Piper and only had one door....
The second thing that went funny was on the westbound leg, from Florida to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, when on approach, with a 727 following, the flaps failed to deploy on very short final. So I remarked, as one does, Oh ****.
Never never never say Oh **** when a passenger can hear you. It spoils his enjoyment of the experience. I am sure you will all take this message to heart.
Happy New Year!
Or like my pal "Where's that smoke coming from?" when he was talking about a large bonfire on the ground and I thought my time was up..
Later, as I circled Urquhart Castle while she took pics, she became concerned when she realised "we were not producing smoke".
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Never never never say Oh **** when a passenger can hear you.
"Don't worry if I start talking to myself, many pilots do it. It's a habit we get into explaining to instructors and examiners what we're doing, and many of us don't get out of it.
"Further, don't worry if I start swearing to myself. Usually this simply means that I'm displeased with myself for having done something slightly less neatly than should have been possible; it will almost certainly not be an indication of a real problem."
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Never never never say Oh **** when a passenger can hear you.
Pace
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Alas Silvaire you are right about the Anglo Saxon tradition....that's why in Australia they feel the need to be as prescriptive as possible about what you cannot do.... and CAR228 states:
(Sorry I have not worked out how to include previous quotes in my posts)
A person shall not manipulate the controls of an aircraft in flight unless the
person is:
• the pilot assigned for duty in the aircraft; or
• a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft.
However this is generally ignored by more pragmatic people who have dared to venture outside that police state....in general most insular Australians are absolutely appalled at the general lawlessness of the rest of the world!person is:
• the pilot assigned for duty in the aircraft; or
• a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft.
(Sorry I have not worked out how to include previous quotes in my posts)
Moderator
• the pilot assigned for duty in the aircraft
Though perhaps elsewhere in the Auzzi regs "pilot" is defined as a qualified license holder.
I assign you the duty of manipulating the controls.
Well sorry to disappoint you folks but this Aussie lets his passengers have a go if they wish to ( so long as we are clear of controlled airspace and enough space between us and terra firma ) and nearly all the pilots I know are the same. We just don't advertise the fact. Why stir the ant nest if you don't need to.
Last edited by mostlytossas; 2nd Jan 2013 at 12:05.
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Mostlytossas
Its OK I regularly let a thing without a thinking brain have a go flying the aircraft.
He is called George.
Most of the time George does a better job that me although he has no ability to actually land an aircraft and has never had any training.
Sometimes he goes bonkers and I have to do an emergency disconnect from him flying the aircraft numerous times.
Anyway you have to watch George like a Hawk.
On one occasion he did a sharp uncommanded bank which scared the life out of me!
But then George is a brainless so and so with a brain of metal and electronics
Does anyone know whether George can legally log the hours as Pilot in command
and in the case of an accident caused by George would he be liable
Pace
Its OK I regularly let a thing without a thinking brain have a go flying the aircraft.
He is called George.
Most of the time George does a better job that me although he has no ability to actually land an aircraft and has never had any training.
Sometimes he goes bonkers and I have to do an emergency disconnect from him flying the aircraft numerous times.
Anyway you have to watch George like a Hawk.
On one occasion he did a sharp uncommanded bank which scared the life out of me!
But then George is a brainless so and so with a brain of metal and electronics
Does anyone know whether George can legally log the hours as Pilot in command
and in the case of an accident caused by George would he be liable Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Jan 2013 at 12:55.
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Quote: Could we go back 200 years & rethink that? 
I know...weird isn't it....some kind of over-compensation for having convict roots maybe....for example in Australia if you want to fly into a "security controlled airport" with "regular public transport" - which could be a pretty basic airport with a couple of commercial flights a day - you need a security pass with a police background check (at your cost of course)...AND it needs to be renewed every two years.....even if you avoid these airports you need a full background (re)check every four years anyway. Ignore this for a $10,000 fine....and you better have a (approved) secondary locking device for your aircraft (propellor or throttle etc.) regardless of airport type....again $10,000 if you don't....want to fly below 500ft (with no persons or structures in sight)? - illegal....fly in formation? - need a rating for that...
It's not just aviation where Aussies love to create laws....helmets for cylcing - mandatory (and enforced vigorously), leave your keys in the car and walk more than 3m away - fine and demerit points (NSW)...rest your arm on the window opening whilst driving...fine
So when Aussies finally leave and see hoe it is (even in Europe) they can't believe how lax the laws are!
I know...weird isn't it....some kind of over-compensation for having convict roots maybe....for example in Australia if you want to fly into a "security controlled airport" with "regular public transport" - which could be a pretty basic airport with a couple of commercial flights a day - you need a security pass with a police background check (at your cost of course)...AND it needs to be renewed every two years.....even if you avoid these airports you need a full background (re)check every four years anyway. Ignore this for a $10,000 fine....and you better have a (approved) secondary locking device for your aircraft (propellor or throttle etc.) regardless of airport type....again $10,000 if you don't....want to fly below 500ft (with no persons or structures in sight)? - illegal....fly in formation? - need a rating for that...
It's not just aviation where Aussies love to create laws....helmets for cylcing - mandatory (and enforced vigorously), leave your keys in the car and walk more than 3m away - fine and demerit points (NSW)...rest your arm on the window opening whilst driving...fine
So when Aussies finally leave and see hoe it is (even in Europe) they can't believe how lax the laws are!
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Does anyone know whether George can legally log the hours as Pilot in command
90 days in order to legally carry you as a Pax.
Also does he have a valid medical?
and in the case of an accident caused by George would he be liable
who would make a good case for this - easier to get money out of a (rich?)
manufacturer that has mega-buck liability insurance.
And George obviously did malfunction: T-1000 Cybernetic Organisms
are not permitted to (try and) self-destruct!
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Also does he have a valid medical?
As for his vision ? forget it!!!
But he is a loyal and much loved companion in the cockpit When he is good!!
I am quite happy to let him have a go at being as good as me medical or no medical
He has perfected flying an ILS localiser and glideslope but rubbish at controlling power which you have to do for him.
His Breeding is not fantastic but I have heard his more sophisticated relatives can do the lot even better than us
They dont have medicals either!
No. Because he has not carried out the required T/Os & LDGs in previous
90 days in order to legally carry you as a Pax.
90 days in order to legally carry you as a Pax.
But his sophisticated relatives have so presume they can log as P1??? Of course minus the medicals
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Jan 2013 at 18:50.
Awqward, yes you are correct in so far as the stupid government requirement we now have for security passes and secondary locks since 9/11. The ASIC is issued by CASA after we have been cleared by ASIO (something like your MI5 I think) so those nasty Taliban types can't get licences.These cost about $A300 and need be renewed every 2 years. Likewise the secondary locks will stop them pinching a C172 and (unless they have a simple bulk cutter with them) flying into buildings. The vast majority of pilots reckon it is stupid too. But we are stuck with it unfortunately. As far as the 500ft rule there is good reason for that. In Australia we have 1000's of miles of high voltage wires between centers strung from towers often well over 100ft high many in remote areas which are nigh impossible to see from the air.Underground cabling is too expensive amongst other problems with such vast distances. As a German pilot visiting OZ found a few years ago, when he flew down the Stuart Hwy in a C172 at low level illegally, just for fun, until he hit one killing himself and all on board in the process.
Formation flying with no training? really is this allowed in the UK? It shouldn't be in my opinion if your flying within a few metres of someone elses wingtip you would want to know what your doing or you could bring the whole lot down. But not all is bad either. We have a night VFR rating here which I use regularly,and find very useful. I believe some parts of europe this is not allowed?
Off topic a bit but one area I am glad we have strict licensing is the electrical industry. Unless you have served an appenticeship or simular and passed the theory exams you cannot work as an electrician. Unlike many parts of europe including the UK where someone can be an offsider then either be promoted to tradesman or go out on their own without ever doing a formal course. I know this as I worked over there in the early 70's and some of the wiring I saw particularly down the south of europe Spain,Italy etc would curl your hair, and never be allowed here thank god.
The Australian licensing system is a problem with immigrants wishing to work here without proper qualifications and even some professionals such as Doctors,engineers etc do not get recognised without passing the local entry exams. That is fair enough too as every country has the right to set their own standards whether we all like or agree with them or not. Me personally, I'm 5 years off retirement so not my problem
Formation flying with no training? really is this allowed in the UK? It shouldn't be in my opinion if your flying within a few metres of someone elses wingtip you would want to know what your doing or you could bring the whole lot down. But not all is bad either. We have a night VFR rating here which I use regularly,and find very useful. I believe some parts of europe this is not allowed?
Off topic a bit but one area I am glad we have strict licensing is the electrical industry. Unless you have served an appenticeship or simular and passed the theory exams you cannot work as an electrician. Unlike many parts of europe including the UK where someone can be an offsider then either be promoted to tradesman or go out on their own without ever doing a formal course. I know this as I worked over there in the early 70's and some of the wiring I saw particularly down the south of europe Spain,Italy etc would curl your hair, and never be allowed here thank god.
The Australian licensing system is a problem with immigrants wishing to work here without proper qualifications and even some professionals such as Doctors,engineers etc do not get recognised without passing the local entry exams. That is fair enough too as every country has the right to set their own standards whether we all like or agree with them or not. Me personally, I'm 5 years off retirement so not my problem
Last edited by mostlytossas; 3rd Jan 2013 at 04:41.
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Sorry Tossas, I can see you are suitably aghast at the lax laws outside Straya.....I didn't mean to hijack this topic and turn it into an Oz bashing forum (don't even start me on ATC / airspace)....but just to clarify - the German was clearly flying within 500ft of structures...which would have been illegal in the US and UK....he just couldn't read a map...and the UK has a night rating too (now called a Night Qualification) and the US has a logbook sign off if you did 3 hrs and a 100nm XC with a distant landing during your PPL training....whereas Aus requires 15 hrs and a rating because it is darker in Australia....Don't get me wrong I think it is very silly to fly below 500ft, and night flying without visual reference requires instrument skill....it's just that Australia has a culture of not relying on people's common sense and instead creating detailed regulations to outlaw every possible permutation of stupidiy...and lawmakers are very efficient as well...I especially like the Penalty Units system for fines....all CASA need to do is change the value of a unit periodically to keep up with inflation instead of revising every regulation with a fine (literally thousands)....Anyway no more Aussie bashing from me in this thread....I am fifth generation Aussie afterall...love the place...hate the bureaucracy
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Awqward
But this overregulation is the same in Europe and created because of Government created unproductive Jobs.
Create all these Jobs and they have to have something to do sadly that is filling their time looking at new and ever more petty areas to regulate on.
This is their existence and costs Europe a fortune in huge salaries, Gold plated pensions, expensive wine bar allowances and God knows what else.
Someone has to pay and sadly its us.
No wonder we produce so little and all production goes to places like India and China as we have priced and strangled ourselves out of the market.
But that is a Europe thing too.
Pace
But this overregulation is the same in Europe and created because of Government created unproductive Jobs.
Create all these Jobs and they have to have something to do sadly that is filling their time looking at new and ever more petty areas to regulate on.
This is their existence and costs Europe a fortune in huge salaries, Gold plated pensions, expensive wine bar allowances and God knows what else.
Someone has to pay and sadly its us.
No wonder we produce so little and all production goes to places like India and China as we have priced and strangled ourselves out of the market.
But that is a Europe thing too.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Jan 2013 at 08:40.