The most unnecessary chute pull ever?
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From the report submitted by the pilot he had 1950 hours and an instrument rating, with good currency. He was also a flight instructor.
There is a big difference between the make believe world of IFR flight instruction and actually hand flying in IMC.
Actually some of them might be better off putting on a hood as soon as they get in cloud and then maybe there would not be the stress of knowing they were IMC for real?
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Aye Adrian the rest of us can work out that he was an idiot that shouldn't have been on the stick in the conditions.
personally I am over 6k hours with the majority of them inside sodding clouds and with over 30 knts wind on the ground I might add.
personally I am over 6k hours with the majority of them inside sodding clouds and with over 30 knts wind on the ground I might add.
Re spins and the Cirrus
This is the report from a Crash in Canada
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A10W0155
The airplane spun in and killed 3. Of note is that at the time of impact the rotation had stopped and the aircraft was pitching up. However when the aircraft departed from controlled flight the aircraft was well within the CAPs envelope for a successful deployment.
It would seem to me that if the pilot had followed the POH procedure and pulled the big red handle it is highly likely there would be 3 less dead people and the aircraft might have even flown again.....
This is the report from a Crash in Canada
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A10W0155
The airplane spun in and killed 3. Of note is that at the time of impact the rotation had stopped and the aircraft was pitching up. However when the aircraft departed from controlled flight the aircraft was well within the CAPs envelope for a successful deployment.
It would seem to me that if the pilot had followed the POH procedure and pulled the big red handle it is highly likely there would be 3 less dead people and the aircraft might have even flown again.....
I think the 70 or so people who are still alive because the CAP's was used might disagree.......
I see the Chuck and Clunk forum (Aka the Canada forum) isn't getting any posts. I wonder why that is ? So I guess you decided to "add"
to this forum 
Funny how pretty much every post you make seems to involve putting other pilots down, while usually blowing your own horn........
Too bad because you have a lot of experience to offer, but sharing that experience would mean actually engaging in a dialogue rather than just expecting fawning admiration and completely uncritical agreement.....
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I think the 70 or so people who are still alive because the CAP's was used might disagree.......
Of course those involved in fatal accidents and who might have lived if they, or the pilot flying them, had pulled are no longer able to express an opinion.
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personally I am over 6k hours with the majority of them inside sodding clouds and with over 30 knts wind on the ground I might add.
Re spins and the Cirrus
This is the report from a Crash in Canada
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A10W0155
The airplane spun in and killed 3. Of note is that at the time of impact the rotation had stopped and the aircraft was pitching up. However when the aircraft departed from controlled flight the aircraft was well within the CAPs envelope for a successful deployment.
It would seem to me that if the pilot had followed the POH procedure and pulled the big red handle it is highly likely there would be 3 less dead people and the aircraft might have even flown again.....
This is the report from a Crash in Canada
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A10W0155
The airplane spun in and killed 3. Of note is that at the time of impact the rotation had stopped and the aircraft was pitching up. However when the aircraft departed from controlled flight the aircraft was well within the CAPs envelope for a successful deployment.
It would seem to me that if the pilot had followed the POH procedure and pulled the big red handle it is highly likely there would be 3 less dead people and the aircraft might have even flown again.....
The issues, to me, concerning survival of a spin from circuit height, are all about why the aeroplane was spinning in the first place - everything after that is to a fair extent, detail.
G
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GTE
The stall characteristics are extremely benign. I've stalled mine many times in training and it really isn't a big deal at all.
Here is a quote from Cirrus on the wing design:
For what it's worth, Cirrus is not the only manufacturer to adopt this design.
The stall characteristics are extremely benign. I've stalled mine many times in training and it really isn't a big deal at all.
Here is a quote from Cirrus on the wing design:
Cirrus chose, in the very earliest stages of designing the SR20 to take on the challenge: to minimize the risks associated with inadvertently stalling an airplane. The approach chosen was to employ wing technology developed by NASA reducing the potential for spin entry after an inadvertent stall. The most visible aspect is the discontinuous leading edge dividing the wing into distinct parts.
The outboard section of the Cirrus wing flies with a lower angle of attack than the inboard section. When the inboard section, which produces much of the lift, stalls the outboard section, where the ailerons are, is still flying. The result is that a stalled Cirrus airplane can be controlled intuitively using aileron.
The outboard section of the Cirrus wing flies with a lower angle of attack than the inboard section. When the inboard section, which produces much of the lift, stalls the outboard section, where the ailerons are, is still flying. The result is that a stalled Cirrus airplane can be controlled intuitively using aileron.
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Jonzarno
Really I don't know what we are all arguing about certainly not the quality of the Cirrus or it's systems which are mind boggling for such a small single!
Certainly not the CAPS which is proving a must for SEP aircraft! My own position has moved considerably from the original discussions on when I would use it!
So what is my argument?
It's not directly about the aircraft or it's systems or the CAPS but about the fact that with all positives come negatives!
The negatives I believe is the fact that having a CAPS which is proving so reliable will coax pilots into flying out if their ability zone ! I know for a fact that any distance at night in a SEP is unnactable for me because I never fly without an out! Black night and there are no outs if the engine quits!
With the CAPS there is an out so I would fly a Cirrus at night!
I am sure the same happens with pilots who are not up to speed on IMC /IFR flying! They have an out in the form if the CAPS!
So for me there are two areas to be guarded against !
The CAPS having to be used because SOME pilots fly out of their ability/ experience levels and get in a mess! There appears to be evidence of that !
Secondly the systems compensating for or allowing pilots to get rusty or lazy with their hand flying ability!
Even in the jets I fly on maintenance movements below RVSM We hand fly all the way as it's good for the soul
I have absolutely NO doubts that there is a FEEL GOOD factor we need to guard against and a lazy flying factor created by the very systems and CAPS which is there to protect us
This is all getting to personal too entrenched
Pace
Really I don't know what we are all arguing about certainly not the quality of the Cirrus or it's systems which are mind boggling for such a small single!
Certainly not the CAPS which is proving a must for SEP aircraft! My own position has moved considerably from the original discussions on when I would use it!
So what is my argument?
It's not directly about the aircraft or it's systems or the CAPS but about the fact that with all positives come negatives!
The negatives I believe is the fact that having a CAPS which is proving so reliable will coax pilots into flying out if their ability zone ! I know for a fact that any distance at night in a SEP is unnactable for me because I never fly without an out! Black night and there are no outs if the engine quits!
With the CAPS there is an out so I would fly a Cirrus at night!
I am sure the same happens with pilots who are not up to speed on IMC /IFR flying! They have an out in the form if the CAPS!
So for me there are two areas to be guarded against !
The CAPS having to be used because SOME pilots fly out of their ability/ experience levels and get in a mess! There appears to be evidence of that !
Secondly the systems compensating for or allowing pilots to get rusty or lazy with their hand flying ability!
Even in the jets I fly on maintenance movements below RVSM We hand fly all the way as it's good for the soul
I have absolutely NO doubts that there is a FEEL GOOD factor we need to guard against and a lazy flying factor created by the very systems and CAPS which is there to protect us
This is all getting to personal too entrenched
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 25th May 2014 at 08:46.
G
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They will have come from the lift the wing with the rudder school of slow flight.
I might add this ability to bite with incorrect technique of the Tommy's is one reason why they produce better pilots.
I might add this ability to bite with incorrect technique of the Tommy's is one reason why they produce better pilots.
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GTE
Good question! I don't know. But he was high enough for CAPS to have saved him and his passengers.
Jock
It's possible, although that generation of Cirrus has a bugee interconnect between rudder and aileron.
Good question! I don't know. But he was high enough for CAPS to have saved him and his passengers.
Jock
It's possible, although that generation of Cirrus has a bugee interconnect between rudder and aileron.
It would also seem, to me, that had the pilot kept AoA below alpha-crit, and/or the aeroplane had sufficiently benign stalling characteristics with no tendency to spin, that there would be nothing to discuss.
The issues, to me, concerning survival of a spin from circuit height, are all about why the aeroplane was spinning in the first place - everything after that is to a fair extent, detail.
G
The issues, to me, concerning survival of a spin from circuit height, are all about why the aeroplane was spinning in the first place - everything after that is to a fair extent, detail.
G
It is likely that had the Canadian pilot been in any other high performance SEP and had demonstrated a similar lack of skill the result would have been the same, he would not have been able to regain control before he hit the ground.
A fact that is amply demonstrated by the accident record.
The Cirrus is unique because it offers an additional option when things go bad. It is highly likely that if this pilot had followed the Cirrus POH and pulled the chute when he lost control all would have lived. I am personally Ok with that scenario.
The Elephant in this discussion however is Risk Homeostasis. Does knowing you have the chute mean you will take risks that you otherwise would not ? Pace seems to very convinced that this is the case, others including myself are less sure but it is of course a tough issue to prove either way.
However I think that this idea of warped risk appreciation IMO only really applies when we look at bad weather accidents, loss of control in IMC etc.
I can't really believe someone is going to say " I am going to make really slow uncoordinated turns low to the ground because I have the CAPs".
The initiating event for this accident, as I think is universally agreed, was an unacceptable lack of skill. In a perfect world every pilot would strive to attain and maintain adequate skill levels, in the real world however some pilots may think their skills are up to the job, but find out they are not, or an otherwise good pilot has a massive brain fart and does something silly.
Again in both of those cases using the chute is not something to be celebrated but the fact that lives got saved is the important thing.
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I have a spring interconnect as well on the work machine.
Waste of bloody weight and a pain in the backside.
Quite funny though when someone from the pick the wing up with the rudder school of flying try's it when the yaw damper is in. One lad managed to rip his thigh muscle doing that.
Waste of bloody weight and a pain in the backside.
Quite funny though when someone from the pick the wing up with the rudder school of flying try's it when the yaw damper is in. One lad managed to rip his thigh muscle doing that.
There's too many pages to check, but I bet if the guy had gone for a landing and died/killed his pax, the alter arguments would have flown freely. When an air force sprogg, I had no choice but to train with a bunch of Paras (first 2 weeks and 2 jumps) on their jump course at Brize. I regard the training as excellent, and highly professional. When the day came to jump, they reiterated what they had said over and over again those 2 weeks:
"You are in control of this parachute. If you don't like what you are seeing, pull the reserve- NO-ONE will ever condemn you for pulling your reserve".
Funny how that bit stuck. In this case, everyone is alive, and everyone's insurance went up 10p a year (except the pilot's).
CG
"You are in control of this parachute. If you don't like what you are seeing, pull the reserve- NO-ONE will ever condemn you for pulling your reserve".
Funny how that bit stuck. In this case, everyone is alive, and everyone's insurance went up 10p a year (except the pilot's).
CG
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BPF
If I stuck explosives on every corner of your car and asked you to drive through a busy city knowing one mistake and your dead I am sure you would proceed with far more caution than without the explosives attached!
In the same way the Chute would give me that extra out for night flying so that extra level of security!
The guy who is feeling under the weather in a conventional aircraft would cancel an important trip! He may worry about becoming ill at 10000 feet miles from any airport with only him capable of flying!
In the Cirrus the chute would give him an out that extra level of comfort that in the very unlikely event that he did become ill to the point of passing out he has an out which would not be there in a conventional aircraft!
The pilot undertaking and IMC trip which is pushing his boundaries would equally give that pilot an out if it all became to uncomfortable for him to manage!
So in that sense pilots will be lured into conditions and situations which in a conventional aircraft they would avoid!
This is not pointing at Cirrus pilots being a seperate breed! They are the same as other pilots but I have no doubt that having a reliable chute will encourage them to fly out of their own limits!
We are talking about a small minority! The majority are dedicated to their flying and take it very seriously!
When I talk about sticking ones head in the sand it's ignoring this factor or pretending it does not exist!
It is a Cirrus factor which pilots should be aware of and guard against as used correctly and responsibly the chute is a major advancement in flight safety
Pace
If I stuck explosives on every corner of your car and asked you to drive through a busy city knowing one mistake and your dead I am sure you would proceed with far more caution than without the explosives attached!
In the same way the Chute would give me that extra out for night flying so that extra level of security!
The guy who is feeling under the weather in a conventional aircraft would cancel an important trip! He may worry about becoming ill at 10000 feet miles from any airport with only him capable of flying!
In the Cirrus the chute would give him an out that extra level of comfort that in the very unlikely event that he did become ill to the point of passing out he has an out which would not be there in a conventional aircraft!
The pilot undertaking and IMC trip which is pushing his boundaries would equally give that pilot an out if it all became to uncomfortable for him to manage!
So in that sense pilots will be lured into conditions and situations which in a conventional aircraft they would avoid!
This is not pointing at Cirrus pilots being a seperate breed! They are the same as other pilots but I have no doubt that having a reliable chute will encourage them to fly out of their own limits!
We are talking about a small minority! The majority are dedicated to their flying and take it very seriously!
When I talk about sticking ones head in the sand it's ignoring this factor or pretending it does not exist!
It is a Cirrus factor which pilots should be aware of and guard against as used correctly and responsibly the chute is a major advancement in flight safety
Pace
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Chute pull today, all walked away uninjured, no idea of circumstances.
Small plane crashes near Burlington Mall | Local News - WCVB Home
Small plane crashes near Burlington Mall | Local News - WCVB Home
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On final to land apparently...run out of fuel perhaps?
Here's the audio
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2014-1730Z.mp3
Here's the audio
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2014-1730Z.mp3