Crossing the Irish sea in a single
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always climb to a flight level which will allow you to glide to land in the event of a donk quitting - foolproof !!
In deed many light singles can't climb high enough for the crossing in most places, to remain within gliding distance.
Last edited by dublinpilot; 14th Oct 2012 at 14:26.
Well, I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have been called in the middle of the night in the Atlantic (on 121.5) by some chap who was unable to raise Gander or Shanwick on his home-made HF set and who was down so low that he was almost scratching the surface to avoid ice and asking me to relay for him.
What were they doing? Usually on an 21 hour direct flight plan from Gander (if they had the proper equipment) or from St Pierre et Miquelon (if they didn't).
Of course, most of them got away with it.
I sat up there at F350 passing on the messages and boggling at what motivates anyone to tackle the Pond direct in a PA-28.
Let me just say that I have over 2,000 hours in gliders which do not suffer engine failures.
I also have over 16,000 hours in powered aeroplanes (most of them with four engines).
Until recently, I owned a very nice and well-equipped PA-28. I had all the gear in it, but when I went overwater I was never totally happy.
Perhaps it was that during my 18 years in the RAF I learned during several Sea Survival courses (in those days they were held at Mountbatten) that even the English Channel is not much fun in February.
The statistics are actually pretty good. Provided that your aircraft is well maintained and nothing goes wrong, you could do Liverpool to Dublin almost ad infinitum.
But that is not the way that statistics work out.
If you have reasonable common sense you must ask yourself if you are prepared to be the statistic.
What were they doing? Usually on an 21 hour direct flight plan from Gander (if they had the proper equipment) or from St Pierre et Miquelon (if they didn't).
Of course, most of them got away with it.
I sat up there at F350 passing on the messages and boggling at what motivates anyone to tackle the Pond direct in a PA-28.
Let me just say that I have over 2,000 hours in gliders which do not suffer engine failures.
I also have over 16,000 hours in powered aeroplanes (most of them with four engines).
Until recently, I owned a very nice and well-equipped PA-28. I had all the gear in it, but when I went overwater I was never totally happy.
Perhaps it was that during my 18 years in the RAF I learned during several Sea Survival courses (in those days they were held at Mountbatten) that even the English Channel is not much fun in February.
The statistics are actually pretty good. Provided that your aircraft is well maintained and nothing goes wrong, you could do Liverpool to Dublin almost ad infinitum.
But that is not the way that statistics work out.
If you have reasonable common sense you must ask yourself if you are prepared to be the statistic.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew with my wife and two friends to France many years ago in a C172. After the experience my wife made me promise not to fly over water again in a single, as our daughter had just been born.
Years later a pilot (who later featured in the TV series '999') ditched a turbine helicopter in the Irish Sea off Blackpool. He was wearing an immersion suit, but only just survived thanks to a passing aircraft dropping him a dinghy. His immersion suit leaked and he recalled how quickly he lost feeling due to the cold.
I think the issues to consider are:
The 'shock' of the experience and the fact that, rather than being a small boy swimming in the sea off Whitby, you will be suddenly cold, in shock and possibly injured;
In an environment which is alien to you, with the added dangers of sea state and sea temperature; and
Unlikely to be 100% prepared in terms of survival equipment, clothing and knowledge of its use - particularly in the adverse conditions of a ditching (I've never seen an immersion suit nor seen anyone wearing one in reality).
I'm sure I read an article in Pilot magazine years ago written by a former Air/Sea Rescue pilot who stated that in all the years he had been flying in that role he never brought anyone out of the sea alive. Some survived the ditching, but of those none survived the sea and the cold.
FOK
Years later a pilot (who later featured in the TV series '999') ditched a turbine helicopter in the Irish Sea off Blackpool. He was wearing an immersion suit, but only just survived thanks to a passing aircraft dropping him a dinghy. His immersion suit leaked and he recalled how quickly he lost feeling due to the cold.
I think the issues to consider are:
The 'shock' of the experience and the fact that, rather than being a small boy swimming in the sea off Whitby, you will be suddenly cold, in shock and possibly injured;
In an environment which is alien to you, with the added dangers of sea state and sea temperature; and
Unlikely to be 100% prepared in terms of survival equipment, clothing and knowledge of its use - particularly in the adverse conditions of a ditching (I've never seen an immersion suit nor seen anyone wearing one in reality).
I'm sure I read an article in Pilot magazine years ago written by a former Air/Sea Rescue pilot who stated that in all the years he had been flying in that role he never brought anyone out of the sea alive. Some survived the ditching, but of those none survived the sea and the cold.
FOK
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Above The Clouds
Yes, as you point out with the correct equipment.
How many people have that - and know instinctively and effectively how to operate it?
A ditching is no time to read the operating instructions!
I know when I was flying with the airlines and ditching was discussed, we all thought the training techniques were less than ideal and effective - leave the aircraft by the emergency exits, inflate your lifejacket, form a circle joining hands/tieing your lifejackets together, assist the passengers ... whatever?!
All designed - as with all things in aviation - to provide an 'option'. No disaster in aviation is trained for with anything other than a 'happy ending' - not even two engines falling off your B737!
Maybe if the true statistics of ditching a light single in Northern waters was made clear an engine failure might be taken more seriously. Personally, I don't think many people take the risks too seriously. I flew to the TT Races in the IOM this year and was one of (I think) only two or three twins there. Most people were in shirt sleeves and no sign of one immersion suit. I'm sure many had dinghies and (I hope) all had lifejackets - luckily none had an engine failure.
What would have happened if the friend of Above The Clouds hadn't been found in 18 hours - but not for days?
I'll never fly a single across water again - the same friend who I flew to France with the first time flew another C172 years later the flight after the aircraft had returned from the IOM. He had an engine failure/fire and managed to glide into Sywell. Had that happened to the pilot a flying hour before, who knows?
FOK
Yes, as you point out with the correct equipment.
How many people have that - and know instinctively and effectively how to operate it?
A ditching is no time to read the operating instructions!
I know when I was flying with the airlines and ditching was discussed, we all thought the training techniques were less than ideal and effective - leave the aircraft by the emergency exits, inflate your lifejacket, form a circle joining hands/tieing your lifejackets together, assist the passengers ... whatever?!
All designed - as with all things in aviation - to provide an 'option'. No disaster in aviation is trained for with anything other than a 'happy ending' - not even two engines falling off your B737!
Maybe if the true statistics of ditching a light single in Northern waters was made clear an engine failure might be taken more seriously. Personally, I don't think many people take the risks too seriously. I flew to the TT Races in the IOM this year and was one of (I think) only two or three twins there. Most people were in shirt sleeves and no sign of one immersion suit. I'm sure many had dinghies and (I hope) all had lifejackets - luckily none had an engine failure.
What would have happened if the friend of Above The Clouds hadn't been found in 18 hours - but not for days?
I'll never fly a single across water again - the same friend who I flew to France with the first time flew another C172 years later the flight after the aircraft had returned from the IOM. He had an engine failure/fire and managed to glide into Sywell. Had that happened to the pilot a flying hour before, who knows?
FOK
I'm slightly alarmed at the previous comment about trying to ditch on an oil-tanker. I guess crude isn't as volatile as gasoline, but my immediate thought is that it would be better to ditch next to the ship and hope that someone was on lookout duty.
IMHO this thread is an interesting lesson on perceived risk.
To imply that it is irresponsible/stupid to fly across the Irish Sea in a well maintained PA28/C172 is ridiculous. Frankly I'm happy to take my wife and children on such a trip. Of course take a life jacket/dingy/PLB and tell your passengers how to use them but only because it's easy to do, the chances of actually getting them wet is tiny.
The reduction in risk of using a twin turbine flown by two professional pilots is too small to worry about, and has multiple disadvantages.
Bill
To imply that it is irresponsible/stupid to fly across the Irish Sea in a well maintained PA28/C172 is ridiculous. Frankly I'm happy to take my wife and children on such a trip. Of course take a life jacket/dingy/PLB and tell your passengers how to use them but only because it's easy to do, the chances of actually getting them wet is tiny.
The reduction in risk of using a twin turbine flown by two professional pilots is too small to worry about, and has multiple disadvantages.
Bill
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO this thread is an interesting lesson on perceived risk.
Some posters seem to have so little faith in a piston engine I am surprised they use them at all.
Flying for 23 years and 1100 hours I've never had an engine failure. Driving for 44 years at around 15000 miles per year I've only had engine failure on one vehicle. A crappy mini van with a known faulty fuel pump temporarily fixed by thumping it. Of course I've had a few which wouldn't start!
D.O.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by abgd
I'm slightly alarmed at the previous comment about trying to ditch on an oil-tanker. I guess crude isn't as volatile as gasoline, but my immediate thought is that it would be better to ditch next to the ship and hope that someone was on lookout duty.
Both are adamant - don't ditch next to an oil tanker.
The watch probably won't see you, and even if they did there's virtually no chance of the tanker stopping, even if it could (which is unlikely given its momentum).
The RNLI chap (who is also a flyer) recommends ferries, assuming the luxury of the option. Lots of eyes, and very manoeuvrable.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a reasonably consistent annual rate of light piston powered aircraft ditching around the UK. Disappointingly, the most common reason to swim seems to be running out of fuel! I think all of the twins except for the mystery dual unrelated root cause IOM Twin Comanche went down due to fuel exhaustion/mismanagement.
It is global news if a twin turbine has both engines shut down.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 15th Oct 2012 at 11:18.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Daventry UK
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've crossed to Ireland on many occasions in a PA-28. One thing I'd like to add to this discussion is the importance of the ferry routes. On the Holyhead Dublin route there are always ferries somewhere and on most days the gaps between them are far less than the gliding distance to shore. I always take note of each ferry that I leave behind me, just in case.
There are ferries on the Southern route (Fishguard/Milford Haven to Rosslare) but the gaps between them are much bigger. Ditto the Stranraer to Larne route, but of course the crossing is much shorter here. I travelled on the bridge of a P&O ferry once and was impressed to see that they carry a 121.5 radio permanently on.
Other routes, like Central Wales to Arklow, have no ferries and sometimes little other shipping to be seen. I don't route that way now, although I've done it a few times in the past, because I don't regard the risk in an SEP (or any reciprocating engined aircraft) as being completely negligible.
Finally, it's worth noting that there is great value in being in continuous radio contact with someone when over the sea, just in case something does go wrong, especially on summer evenings and other times when Valley is closed and Dublin hand you off to London Information. Amazingly the promulgated frequency of 124.75 DOES NOT WORK to the west of Holyhead due to the shadow of Snowdon although the Northern frequency of 125.475 does. I've been banging on about this for more than 10yrs but nothing ever gets done about it, apart from them removing the legend 'London Information 124.75' from the 1/2 mil map right at the spot where it doesn't work!
There are ferries on the Southern route (Fishguard/Milford Haven to Rosslare) but the gaps between them are much bigger. Ditto the Stranraer to Larne route, but of course the crossing is much shorter here. I travelled on the bridge of a P&O ferry once and was impressed to see that they carry a 121.5 radio permanently on.
Other routes, like Central Wales to Arklow, have no ferries and sometimes little other shipping to be seen. I don't route that way now, although I've done it a few times in the past, because I don't regard the risk in an SEP (or any reciprocating engined aircraft) as being completely negligible.
Finally, it's worth noting that there is great value in being in continuous radio contact with someone when over the sea, just in case something does go wrong, especially on summer evenings and other times when Valley is closed and Dublin hand you off to London Information. Amazingly the promulgated frequency of 124.75 DOES NOT WORK to the west of Holyhead due to the shadow of Snowdon although the Northern frequency of 125.475 does. I've been banging on about this for more than 10yrs but nothing ever gets done about it, apart from them removing the legend 'London Information 124.75' from the 1/2 mil map right at the spot where it doesn't work!
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Bangor, Co. Down
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crossing the Irish sea in a single
I've flown from Newtownards via Ronaldsway (IoM) to Sywell & back over the past couple of months. C172, with 4 up, in the back on the way out and P1 back. We all wore lifejackets, but we were over open water for what seemed a very long time, and I couldn't help thinking about a recent article in "Pilot" about a contributor who suffered engine failure thanks to a piece of dead insect blocking the main jet in his carburettor. He was able to land on a golf course though. Also my son is a SAR Sea King pilot, who told me in no uncertain terms how silly he thought it was to fly a single on a long over water leg without all the survival gear - immersion suits, dinghies, PLBs, when it wasn't absolutely necessary. Assuming you survive the ditching, can extricate yourself from the back of a sinking Cessna without the dunker training the military seem to think is necessary, and assuming you don't then succumb to cold shock, the SAR guys, when they arrive, are going to be looking for a football-sized object (your head!) in a large expanse of water.
Like others have said, it's all about how much risk you want to take, but I personally won't be doing that sort of route again. There are much shorter sea crossings between Scotland & NI and I'd use those, albeit at the expense of a few additional flying miles. There's still water, but much less of it!
Like others have said, it's all about how much risk you want to take, but I personally won't be doing that sort of route again. There are much shorter sea crossings between Scotland & NI and I'd use those, albeit at the expense of a few additional flying miles. There's still water, but much less of it!
professionally crewed twin turbine aircraft have orders of magnitude less probability of going down due to a power plant failure (or more generally for any reason).
Spending ones life in a cave to avoid being hit by meteorites reduces the risk by several orders of magnitude but the improvement in absolute risk is very small.
Bill
Last edited by Romeo Tango; 15th Oct 2012 at 17:02.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stewart52
Yes, my points exactly - and interesting that your son confirms the advice penned those years ago by another ex-SAR pilot.
The more I've learn't about flying, the less 'risks' I've learn't to take!
KR
FOK
Yes, my points exactly - and interesting that your son confirms the advice penned those years ago by another ex-SAR pilot.
The more I've learn't about flying, the less 'risks' I've learn't to take!
KR
FOK
Pompey till I die
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 51
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very odd story, that last one.
They probably descended 30,000 feet.
But furthermore, this guys mast broke. Problem, but not all that uncommon in off-shore sailing. Part of your emergency equipment should be stuff to cut through the mainstays and hack through the mast remains so that you can cut it all free. He apparently did so, then motored on for 12 hours while knowing full well that he would not have the fuel to reach land. But only when nearly out of fuel did he somehow raise the alarm, and for some reason the Coast Guard did not have any clue where he was.
We are discussing on here whether you should have a (possibly GPS enabled) PLB for crossing the Channel or North Sea, in addition to the ELT. For flights lasting less than an hour (sometimes even mere minutes) over water. I would have thought that having a GPS enabled PLB (or two) on board for oceanic sailing would be a given. Maybe a satphone as well. At the very least, something to rig up a backup VHF antenna.
So somehow I think there's more to the story than what's currently in the media.
An Air Canada passenger plane dropped 30,000 feet in order to help a yacht that was in distress.
But furthermore, this guys mast broke. Problem, but not all that uncommon in off-shore sailing. Part of your emergency equipment should be stuff to cut through the mainstays and hack through the mast remains so that you can cut it all free. He apparently did so, then motored on for 12 hours while knowing full well that he would not have the fuel to reach land. But only when nearly out of fuel did he somehow raise the alarm, and for some reason the Coast Guard did not have any clue where he was.
We are discussing on here whether you should have a (possibly GPS enabled) PLB for crossing the Channel or North Sea, in addition to the ELT. For flights lasting less than an hour (sometimes even mere minutes) over water. I would have thought that having a GPS enabled PLB (or two) on board for oceanic sailing would be a given. Maybe a satphone as well. At the very least, something to rig up a backup VHF antenna.
So somehow I think there's more to the story than what's currently in the media.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are discussing on here whether you should have a (possibly GPS enabled) PLB for crossing the Channel or North Sea, in addition to the ELT. For flights lasting less than an hour (sometimes even mere minutes) over water. I would have thought that having a GPS enabled PLB (or two) on board for oceanic sailing would be a given. Maybe a satphone as well. At the very least, something to rig up a backup VHF antenna.
You might well put together a jury rig so reliance on the engine is not total.
One suspects (I have not read the reports) that he must have communicated his distress in some way for the aircraft to be looking for him in the first place. Unlike a "downed" aircraft you will almost never stay still in the ocean (although with a drogue parachute you will drift very little) so your initial GPS fix will change over time. His original point of distress may have been somewhat removed from his position 24 hours later, although yachts are usually very pleased with a full rig to make anywhere near 200 miles in a day. He might have typically motored at between 6 and 8 knots so never the less he could have been a considerable distance from his original point of distress.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Age: 36
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This whole flight over water thingy crops up time and time again, but I've never seen a poll on the should you/shoudn't you debate. I'd like to see one! I may just do an online survey and post a link here, with different variables such as 'would you wear an immersion suit? If not, why not?' with multiple choice answers.
It'd apply only to SEPs.
It'd apply only to SEPs.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Rodge
Your poll would have to be more detailed.
Would you fly from Dover to France a distance barely more than 20nm and most would probably say YES.
Would you fly 500 nm over the North Atlantic and the answer maybe very different.
With a piston single there is a risk. anyone who thinks there is no risk or negligable risk is naive so usually it boils down to how much risk your prepared to take?
I fly with a guy who did a lot of ferry work he lost power in a single 300 nm from land over the North Atlantic. Spiraling down through cloud he broke out at 500 feet above the sea with the only fishing boat right below him.
He landed in the water and was picked up spending a week on the boat before they returned.
How lucky was that???
Pace
Your poll would have to be more detailed.
Would you fly from Dover to France a distance barely more than 20nm and most would probably say YES.
Would you fly 500 nm over the North Atlantic and the answer maybe very different.
With a piston single there is a risk. anyone who thinks there is no risk or negligable risk is naive so usually it boils down to how much risk your prepared to take?
I fly with a guy who did a lot of ferry work he lost power in a single 300 nm from land over the North Atlantic. Spiraling down through cloud he broke out at 500 feet above the sea with the only fishing boat right below him.
He landed in the water and was picked up spending a week on the boat before they returned.
How lucky was that???
Pace