Crossing the Irish sea in a single

[ianwild]

The Flight to the Isle of Man thread has played on my mind quite a bit.

One trip I hope to do once my PPL flying is more established and probably not until I've got confidence and an IMC, is Newtownards near Belfast, which is close to one of our offices and a friends house.

I can see how to make it a reasonably short sea crossing, but it's clear there is a feeling amongst more experienced pilots, including my instructor, that knowing what they know now they just wouldn't perform any sea crossing where there is even a chance of not being able to make land in the event of engine failure.

I understand risk and while of course the engine never knows where it is, mitigating risk is the name of the game. So I was wondering not so much about whether you'd do it personally, but more how PPruners would comment on a pilot who went down after having made the decision to do it.

Would the pilot be irresponsible for having made the decision in the first place? Would it make a difference if there were none PPL passengers on board?

Ian

[Johnm]

I go regularly to the channel island in a light single. I carry a raft, make everyone on board wear life jackets and carry a plb. If the donkey stops I'll be in the briny and I know that others have survived the experience.

[ianwild]

Would I be right in thinking the Irish sea is a lot more brutal than the Channel?

Assuming sea condition / proximity to other craft is a consideration in terms of survival chances, would the channel islands be a safer bet than the Irish sea?

I found this post about someone surviving a ditching, but it strikes me that's probably an exception to what would seem like a normally fatal situation?

Eurghh! So many more questions now I have a PPL than when I was training...

Ian

[Nearly There]

I wouldn't fancy a trans atlantic crossing! but I do Ireland now again (mrs from Cork) as above life jackets, raft, elb, pick a shorter crossing and look out for shipping/rigs and ditch ahead and to the left/right of a ship or near a rig. As for my thoughts if it ended in a ditching due to an eng failing I would think unlucky & hope they're ok.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Would I be right in thinking the Irish sea is a lot more brutal than the Channel?

"Immersion suits if sea temperature is 15C or less" is the rule for S&R out of Culdrose, we were told. Then you've got to extract yourself and dinghy and passengers from an upside-down sinking aircraft, all keep together, get the dinghy inflated, climb into it ... not saying it can't be done, because from time to time it is done successfully, but you're betting your life on it.

[2high2fastagain]

Raft and jackets are essential in my opinion, but the real clincher for me is how I feel about my engine. It's been running flawlessly with very consistent cht/egts, oil temps and pressures for quite some while, so I have gradually felt more comfortable about it and tried longer sea crossings. I would recommend that you try newtownards via the short crossing from Stranraer/mull of Galloway and then build it up from there. Oh and make sure you are talking to someone. Fisbang and his mates at Scottish info will be quick to get someone out to you if they know you are going down.

[thing]

"Immersion suits if sea temperature is 15C or less"

I'm always reminded when I read stuff like that of when I was a nipper and we used to go swimming in the sea off Whitby for hours on end with nothing more than a pair of trunks on. Now apparently it's fatal.

[Mark 1]

Flying over water in a single is only a few percentage points more risky than an equivalent trip over land. Mountains, forests or night-flying are more dangerous in the event of a forced landing than a ditching on water.

It's an individual decision but, properly prepared and equipped, you can expand the utility of your aircraft.

This article gives a good perspective of the risks involved.

[jecuk]

I think if engine failure in singles was a likely as your instructors suggest, very few people would be flying. So long as you don't run out of fuel, and take life jackets, MY view is that a well maintained single over water is fine. But this is really one of those issues where you just have to form your own view.

That said I remember my first open water crossing with my family aboard and it was nerve wracking. Altitude is your friend of course.

[riverrock83]

That article is a good presentation of the facts.

If you are trying to be extremely risk averse then go Mull of Kintyre across to Fair Head. Its something like 6 minutes flying time with no airspace above you so you can always be within gliding distance of land (of most planes).

Survival time in the Irish sea without a life raft is estimated at 1 1/2hrs. Life rafts would prolong that but that assumes you are able to operate it and get into it - easier said than done (I've done the training for operating passenger ships).

If word gets out that you are in trouble (you get through on the radio), your PLB works and you ditch successfully (and the stats are actually quite good with ditching) then you should find a helicopter above you well within that time. If one of those bits fail, things become more difficult unless you have a raft you can get in to.

Would the pilot be irresponsible for having made the decision in the first
place?

I would say only if they were un-prepared (no life jackets) or were flying in conditions that weren't suitable.
However - this is an internet forum so someone would have a bitch...

[Pace]

When you consider how many pieces make up a piston engine then you realize that a failure is a real option.
As someone who flies and scuba dives I am fairly aware of the sea at close quarters as well as a pilot who sees it from 3000 feet up!

3000 feet up those little white smidges and flat looking surface can be 30 foot walls of waves with more energy than you can dream to imagine at sea level!

Pilots do fly long distance USA UK in single engine aircraft over vast expanses of the North sea and in areas where you would last 10 minutes.
Is it risky? Of course it is! Only a fool would kid themselves otherwise.
So it really comes down to a personal choice of the level of risk you are prepared to take.

Do I trust mechanical piston engines? after a few failures in twins and a forced landing in a single? No.

Would I trust a turbine more? Yes!

All I know is crossing sea I am always that bit more relaxed when the coast comes into view and land is below the wings. It is funny how your senses become more highlighted to every beat of the engine over the sea.

Take my word for it landing into a brick wall of a 30 foot wave will be no fun and I have seen and heard singles merrily flying over such seas while flying twins and jets myself as well as seeing them do this with a couple of hours to dusk.

Pace

[BackPacker]

So it really comes down to a personal choice of the level of risk you are prepared to take.

Agree with Pace here. It's the level of risk you are willing to take, and the mitigation measures you take to prevent bad things from happening or from escalating. If you're not prepared to take any risk, you should not be flying privately, in a single engine aircraft in the first place.

Read the Equipped to Survive link that Mark sent you. Not just that link, but the entire site. It's a goldmine of information. Then, ideally, go on a maritime survival course to actually learn how to operate all the equipment, and to feel what it's like bobbing about in a hostile sea, having to operate survival equipment with numb hands and such. Then read some of the other threads on here about crossing the channel and such. And then decide for yourself what sort of gear you're going to bring, assuming you're still willing to take the risk in the first place.

Me personally, I have a drysuit and life jacket but no life raft for crossing the North Sea. Plus some other survival kit: rescuestreamer, signal mirror and a bag of tricks I picked up at the survival course.

I see a lot of people crossing vast expanses of water with just a life raft and some life jackets. After having done that survival course, I know that combination gives a very false sense of security. After the ditching itself is over, hypothermia is your biggest enemy. A dry suit does a lot more to prevent hypothermia than a life raft. And that's assuming you can get the life raft deployed properly, turned right side up, and are able to get into it in the first place. Which are major issues all by themselves, and for which you need proper training.

Furthermore, a 10+ kg life raft is a liability in itself in the event of a ditching. It needs to be secured properly otherwise the impact may launch it forward and hit you in the head or something, but it also should not be secured too well as you may only have a few seconds to retrieve it before the aircraft sinks.

At the end of the day, the only things that are guaranteed to make it out of the aircraft together with you, are the things you carry on your body.

[Fionn101]

just my 2 cents,

I have flown Dublin - Wales a few times (Caernaforn ??) and I also Surf a lot up in the cold Atlantic off the coast of Donegal (water temp around 11 degrees).

With a 5mm wetsuit with gloves,hood and boots I am okay in the water for around 1.5 hours.

If flying over water again I ideally would like a drysuit and life vest and a streamer at the very least, any extra items a bonus.

Drysuit and Altitude are your friend in this crossing.

Take care,
Fionn

[Flyingmac]

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ml#post5383192

It was a twin.

[BackPacker]

I remember that thread. Go to page 3 to read a first-hand account.

Things that struck me:
- Was wearing an immersion suit.
- Had a life raft but was not able to get into it.
- Decided not to stretch the glide, but to ditch in a place where rescue was more likely.
- ATC on the ball, oil rig support vessel + helo nearby, leading to a very short recovery time.

[John R81]

Have crossed the channel and the Irish sea in a single engined helicopter.

Life jackets, floatation gear on the heli, PLB. Always talking to someone on the RT.

I would expect to be able to ditch the heli, inflating floats before contact with the water, but given the position of the engine & gearbox I would expect the machine to turn over in anything but the calmest of water.

Usually I try to navigate shortest crossing, and where possible I head from "ship to ship". There is some chance that I could put the machine onto a tanker / container ship if needed (there's always a chance!) but if not then ditching nearby (I hope) increases the chance of a quick pick-up. There is no possibility of gliding any serious distance in a heli once the donky dies.

Without a PLB or a raft, sea-dye or similar I think the chances of being seen by a search aircraft might be low indeed! Staying with a floating heli - even one that has overturned - should increase the chance of being seen.

[PompeyPaul]

My own experience

Some good points here, about it's your choice and your risk profile.

I crossed both the Channel and the Irish sea. Despite all the horror stories out there these are my own thoughts and findings

1. Take life jackets & raft with you

Although realistically I am sceptical if I actually could inflate the raft if standing on a wing after surviving a ditching attempt. It also strikes me as fairly heavy, there is a high chance it slips into the sea and would be gone. I'd rather cross with than without but it seems to nowhere near ensure survivability.

2. The Irish sea is far more barren than the Channel.

I, maybe naively, am not to worried about crossing the channel. Yes the caveats of there are more dead pilots in the Channel from IMC than WW2 etc but there is lots and lots of shipping. You would most likely come down near a boat. Yeah, I've not tried it but I find that reassuring. The Irish sea is far, far more barren. To my mind it is a far more dicey proposition. That said I still did it, and would possibly do it again.

3. Your own level of risk

When I crossed I was late 30s, unmarried and relatively fit. Today I am almost 40 and with my first born in January. I would now think twice, although probably still give it a whirl. It's not something I would make a habit of, and if I were going to do it multiple times, I'd certainly ensure my life insurance was paid and my will was up to date. It wouldn't stop me, but you know, you are opening yourself up to risk.

There is no simple answer, if you want to live in a bubble of cotton wool, don't fly. On the other hand there is real potential for it to go wrong, are you accepting of that? You can't let fear live your life, if mankind did we would never have gone to the moon. When I am in a care home, my life done, I know I'll look back and remember that mission to Newtonards as something that was a real achievement and something I truly enjoyed.

I guess you have to ask yourself "do you feel lucky punk? well do yah?"

[riverrock83]

Originally Posted by PompeyPaul

2. The Irish sea is far more barren than the Channel.

Agreed. I used to work for P&O Irish Sea onboard on their Larne crossing and in the event of an evacuation we were to expect quite a wait for rescue.

However, for this reason, I would recommend crossing from around Stranrar (Scotland) towards Islandmagee (Larne). You then have 2 Stenaline vessels, 2 P&O vessels and a seasonal fast ferry under you, (along with the odd old freight ship and fishing vessels). Larne is also a good VRP with its 3 towered power station. The crossing isn't as short as slightly further North, but it reduces the track distance some what and so isn't a bad compromise. You can get a service from Aldergrove (or is that "Belfast") approach if you have difficulty contacting Scottish.

[Fuji Abound]

The risk of an engine failure is incredibly small. Ensuring the aircraft is properly maintained will reduce that risk even further. The starting point is that it is barely a risk worth factoring into the equation.

In reality of course it is a fear we all suffer from, as irrational as that maybe. You either set aside the fear and go, or you don't.

You may reconcile the risk by taking reasonable precautions. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that most ditchings are successful. The advantage with the sea is the terrain is predictable, at least to the extent that its only the wave height and frequency that changes. Fortunately I have never landed on the water (other than in a sea plane, which I have done ) so I have no basis for commenting on the effect of swell height and frequency. I sail a lot and I guess if you want to mitigate the risk yet further you could take into account the sea state. The Met Office provides real time buoy data which gives a good indication of the swell and its frequency.

The Irish sea is reasonably desolate so in the event of a ditching I suspect your greatest risk is exposure and ensuring you have secured a ride back. As much height as possible for the crossing will give you the best chance of aiming for a ship or boat and the best chance of maintaining radio contact. Not that it is your route I have lost radio contact below a few thousand feet going to Waterford on more than a few occasions, albeit in a twin so the concern was less. An EPIRB would make sense in terms of ensuring your chances of being found are certain, albeit its complete nonsense for the EPIRB to be fitted to the aircraft which will sink and you will have drifted some distance before recovery. An AIS beacon is a much cheaper alternative although these dont have a selective distress frequency.

Your greatest priority is to protect yourself from exposure. Your priorities include life jackets, rafts and immersion suits. Personally I am happy with just a raft, but others take a different view. Rafts can be difficult to get into and any exposure to the water for any length of time can be very dangerous.

That is about it, except to say that its for you alone to make your own assessment, but you have a far greater chance of meeting your maker in all sorts of other ways that in consequence of an engine failure over the Irish sea - there are a great many other things you should give up first if you were confronting the problem rationally.

[dublinpilot]

Some of us have to cross it if we want to fly any distance