Exercise Joint Warrior = Large area Notam for today 4th October
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Exercise Joint Warrior = Large area Notam for today 4th October
I am planning a flight for 04/10/12 in a PA28. My attention is being drawn to several NOTAMs from SFC-FL550 regarding Exercise Joint Warrior. The area covers just about most of Scotland and NE England between the hours of 1100Z and 1400Z.
The most concerning part is:
The route is Dundee-Cumbernauld via Stirling departing around 1130Z. A large part of the area seems to be around the Central MDA danger area east of Scotland in the North Sea.
As I understand there are no temporary controlled airspace/danger areas set up - all this is taking part in uncontrolled airspace - but how wise would it be to go flying given the strong advice to avoid the area? I've never come across this before and I am undecided whether to fly or not. Any help or advice from anyone with experience would be greatly appreciated!
The most concerning part is:
NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA.
As I understand there are no temporary controlled airspace/danger areas set up - all this is taking part in uncontrolled airspace - but how wise would it be to go flying given the strong advice to avoid the area? I've never come across this before and I am undecided whether to fly or not. Any help or advice from anyone with experience would be greatly appreciated!
Last edited by ABZ777; 3rd Oct 2012 at 23:21.
Large area NOTAM
This is a huge area for VFR flying, although only for 3 hours.
Note:
Note:
NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY
ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA
ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA
Q) EGPX/QWELW/IV/BO/W/000/550/5702N00200W173
B) FROM: 12/10/04 11:00C) TO: 12/10/04 14:00
E) COMBINED QUALIFIED WEAPONS INSTRUCTOR COURSE 12. AREA EAST. UP TO60 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT AIR EXER WI AREA BOUNDED BY 5630N 00700W - 5906N 00118E - 5600N 00245E - 5500N 00120W - 5445N 00120W - 5445N 00500W - 5630N 00700W (NORTH SEA FROM D513 THRU CMDA, NORTHERN ENGLAND AND SOUTHERN SCOTLAND). SUPPORT PROVIDED BY AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING, SURVEILLANCE, AIR TO AIR REFUELLING AND ELECTRONIC WARFARE ACFT. EXER ACFT WILL AVOID CONTROLLED AIRSPACE UNLESS CLEARED BY OR UNDER CONTROL OF APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY. ACFT MAY NOT COMPLY WITH RULES OF THE AIR DURING THE CONDUCT OF HIGH ENERGY MANOEUVRES OUTWITH UK DANGER AREAS. NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA. CONTACT 01489 612495. AIRSPACE COORDINATION NOTICE 2012-10-0022 REFERS.LOWER: SFC
UPPER: FL550
B) FROM: 12/10/04 11:00C) TO: 12/10/04 14:00
E) COMBINED QUALIFIED WEAPONS INSTRUCTOR COURSE 12. AREA EAST. UP TO60 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT AIR EXER WI AREA BOUNDED BY 5630N 00700W - 5906N 00118E - 5600N 00245E - 5500N 00120W - 5445N 00120W - 5445N 00500W - 5630N 00700W (NORTH SEA FROM D513 THRU CMDA, NORTHERN ENGLAND AND SOUTHERN SCOTLAND). SUPPORT PROVIDED BY AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING, SURVEILLANCE, AIR TO AIR REFUELLING AND ELECTRONIC WARFARE ACFT. EXER ACFT WILL AVOID CONTROLLED AIRSPACE UNLESS CLEARED BY OR UNDER CONTROL OF APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY. ACFT MAY NOT COMPLY WITH RULES OF THE AIR DURING THE CONDUCT OF HIGH ENERGY MANOEUVRES OUTWITH UK DANGER AREAS. NON PARTICIPATING AIRCREW ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO REMAIN CLEAR OF AREA. CONTACT 01489 612495. AIRSPACE COORDINATION NOTICE 2012-10-0022 REFERS.LOWER: SFC
UPPER: FL550
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EGPX-H5187/12
"UP TO 60 FAST JET ACFT"
Well, that's the entire serviceable pointy-end of the RAF occupied to the north of Durham - meaning Terry Taliban in his PA-28 Jihad Special can assert air superiority over London and the Home Counties?
Has no-one thought of the consequences?
"UP TO 60 FAST JET ACFT"
Well, that's the entire serviceable pointy-end of the RAF occupied to the north of Durham - meaning Terry Taliban in his PA-28 Jihad Special can assert air superiority over London and the Home Counties?
Has no-one thought of the consequences?
Last edited by eharding; 4th Oct 2012 at 00:58.
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It happens quite often to be honest.
The highlands and islands flights continue as normal.
Although you do get dumped with "multiple fast movers in your area good luck"
Go on your flight and keep a good look out. Speak to scottish info and you more than likely won't see or hear a thing.
The highlands and islands flights continue as normal.
Although you do get dumped with "multiple fast movers in your area good luck"
Go on your flight and keep a good look out. Speak to scottish info and you more than likely won't see or hear a thing.
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Do we still have an airforce to conduct such an exercise ? Maybe a couple of Kingairs they used for the Queens flypast ??
They can stick a couple of missiles on the wings of my Citation if they are pushed ?
Is Captain Mannering organising it all ?
Pace
They can stick a couple of missiles on the wings of my Citation if they are pushed ?
Is Captain Mannering organising it all ?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 4th Oct 2012 at 08:25.
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Its a multi nation thing pace.
They waz around the west coast playing with boats, then go bombing in Tain/Cape Wrath and sometimes dog fight up in the typhoon ranges to the north or east. Usually though they choose to dog fight in the middle of W3D and W6D just when all the commercial flights are trying to use them. It happend so often I suspect they briefed for it.
If the wind is over 15-20 knts they stop playing something to do with the bang seats.
Oh and don't expect your GPS to work as the FRA boys will be out as well.
The reason why they don't like civi's about is they have to knock off if the airborne radar spots a contact near them and they don't get visual. If your on mode charlie they will definately know where you are.
They waz around the west coast playing with boats, then go bombing in Tain/Cape Wrath and sometimes dog fight up in the typhoon ranges to the north or east. Usually though they choose to dog fight in the middle of W3D and W6D just when all the commercial flights are trying to use them. It happend so often I suspect they briefed for it.
If the wind is over 15-20 knts they stop playing something to do with the bang seats.
Oh and don't expect your GPS to work as the FRA boys will be out as well.
The reason why they don't like civi's about is they have to knock off if the airborne radar spots a contact near them and they don't get visual. If your on mode charlie they will definately know where you are.
Last edited by mad_jock; 4th Oct 2012 at 08:12.
Well, I used to be an instructor on the Jaguar OCU at Lossiemeouth. Scotland was our playground. In those days we had an Air Force, a large one. Now we have precious few fast jets and even less serviceable. Moreover, Scotland is a very big place.
My advice is to fly.... but keep your eyes open. You should do that anyway.
As an aside, nowerdays I just fly Cirrus/Bulldog and I much prefer the Cirrus for crosscountry as it has TCAS. Brilliant bit of kit.
My advice is to fly.... but keep your eyes open. You should do that anyway.
As an aside, nowerdays I just fly Cirrus/Bulldog and I much prefer the Cirrus for crosscountry as it has TCAS. Brilliant bit of kit.
Last edited by sharpend; 4th Oct 2012 at 08:56.
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I much prefer the Cirrus for crosscountry as it has TCAS. Brilliant bit of kit.
Furthermore, has anyone ever attempted to try and get a Basic or Traffic Service (or something similar) from one of those AWACS that are overseeing the exercise? That sounds more sensible than getting a Basic service from Scottish, if your main worry is those fast jets. And possibly good practice for those controllers as well.
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Do all these fast fighter jets have a civvy-compatible transponder, and will they show up on a civvy TCAS
I doud't very much if they would speak to you and if they did the person you would be speaking to wouldn't be able to give you any service as more than likely they won't be a controller or from the UK and won't have a clue what a basic service is.
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I presume that they do have transponders, since transponders came from the original friend or foe systems, but due to their erratic / fast and often low level movement and operational reasons they are probably turned off most of the time anyway so are pointless or dangerous. Others on here will know the answer but I certainly wouldn't rely on a TCAS alert! You will be essentially stationary to a fast jet - they need to avoid you...
See http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...fast-jets.html
Imagine the scenario of a fast jet intercepting an airliner, then the airliner getting a TCAS alert saying "climb"...
See http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...fast-jets.html
Imagine the scenario of a fast jet intercepting an airliner, then the airliner getting a TCAS alert saying "climb"...
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Problem is if they climb at more than 8000ft/min the TCAS can't cope with it.
They normally do work by the number of RA's on the east coast NEW-ABZ route.
Normally the boys aloft are more interested in getting aircraft together not apart backpacker.
They normally do work by the number of RA's on the east coast NEW-ABZ route.
Normally the boys aloft are more interested in getting aircraft together not apart backpacker.
Last edited by mad_jock; 4th Oct 2012 at 10:24.
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Seems there is quite a bit going on very late at night / in the wee small hours also at the moment as the last couple of nights I've heard what sounds like a Herc or something go low over my house near Cupar Angus area. I caught sight of the strobes as it flew over the top of the house towards the Sidlaws from N to S and then turned and tracked along the hills heading SW.
Made quite a racket but certainly wouldnt make a complaint, a little bit jealous however as it looks like they were having fun....
As others have said just keep your eyes and ears open, flying in Sotland you get used to pop up fast moving traffic. Personally if something is heading my way at high speed and I'm just having a bimble I turn on all the lights and throw a couple of orbits to make myself more visable.....not much else you can do really!
Made quite a racket but certainly wouldnt make a complaint, a little bit jealous however as it looks like they were having fun....
As others have said just keep your eyes and ears open, flying in Sotland you get used to pop up fast moving traffic. Personally if something is heading my way at high speed and I'm just having a bimble I turn on all the lights and throw a couple of orbits to make myself more visable.....not much else you can do really!
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I guess that will be it then!
Is that the latest countermeasures system they've just deployed in that photo?!?!? Chaff-inch ?!?!?
Sorry, I'll get my coat.....
Is that the latest countermeasures system they've just deployed in that photo?!?!? Chaff-inch ?!?!?
Sorry, I'll get my coat.....
How refined - NOT! 
I'm just peeved I'm not up there to see it all happening. 
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Pure class in Perth, your lucky he only got his socks wet on the way into work. Otherwise the aroma/steam off twice reversed boxers would have made the pic look as if it was down to 600m RVR.
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MadJock
As a well seasoned Hotel stayer one tip for pilots who want sweet smelling socks every day
Wash them in the Hotel shampoo and stick the things on the end of a hairdryer!
They inflate like a windsock and dry within two minutes from wet through to bone dry! Hey presto sweet smelling socks for the man on the move
Have not worked out a quick dry for Knickers yet
Hot mosquito ridden countries eat an advocado the buggers will not come near you Mind you neither will anything else it permeates through the skin.
Pace
As a well seasoned Hotel stayer one tip for pilots who want sweet smelling socks every day
Wash them in the Hotel shampoo and stick the things on the end of a hairdryer!
They inflate like a windsock and dry within two minutes from wet through to bone dry! Hey presto sweet smelling socks for the man on the move
Have not worked out a quick dry for Knickers yet
Hot mosquito ridden countries eat an advocado the buggers will not come near you
Mind you neither will anything else it permeates through the skin.Pace
Last edited by Pace; 4th Oct 2012 at 18:38.