IFR IMC scary?

[Krallu]

Am I unnormal ?

I hold a fATPL, CPL, ME/IR, MCC.

I have flown very little in IMC. But I am now planning to do some more IFR training in a single engine. Before I did not have access to a good IFR plane nearby.

Of course I will take it in small steps and not start with IFR minimums.

But still I feel this kind of fear in IMC. Fear of what if hitting another aircraft in here.. or fear of accidently entering an active CB cloud and beeing lightning hit crashing to the ground.. or engine failure. Mostly I fear I cant see what I am entering. I could enter something really scary.

Is this a false fear due to lack of experience?? Should I start to fly and take things slow and then I will get more comfortable?

Thx!

[achimha]

Same as you, I got my JAR IR ticket with little actual IMC and all of it was done in aircraft I would never feel comfortable with on a real mission.

My own aircraft had the bare minimum IFR equipment and only after starting to fly IFR, I noticed how uncomfortable it made me feel. The extra workload and risk due to a non slaved directional gyro (which showed greater than expected wander), having only one attitude indicator and a rather simple autopilot (with a worn out gyro) turned out to be unacceptable to me. Many aviation money units later, I now have a panel that I feel comfortable with.

My biggest fears are now around flying into icing and CB/thunderstorms. Icing is a very difficult subject -- I still have a hard time making a judgement call. Adding a stormscope might be something for the future, although my hope is that satellite weather might be good enough and give me weather radar like capability at the same time.

[2high2fastagain]

Nope not at all. I have an IMC rating which I use and I'm still pretty apprehensive about going into cloud. I don't tend to worry about CBs smashing me into the ground or other aircraft, it's icing and spiral dives for me. I keep a close eye on the OAT gauge and my strut (which is a brilliant icing warning system).

I do try to remain VMC if I can safely. If you run into cloud, then there is likely to be more of it where you are going as opposed to where you are coming from, which could mean a tricky let down at an airfield you don't really want to go to.

I think a little bit of nervousness is a good thing, provided it doesn't paralyze or impair your judgement. A lot of blase, overconfident pilots end up in AAIB reports or in boxes covered with flowers.

Doing lots of it in training and flying with a safety pilot is a good thing and I'm sure you'll feel more comfortable

[mad_jock]

Perfectly normal and I would say extremely healthy as well.

I wouldn't be to worried about hitting another aircraft it does actually happen that oftn and its even less likely if you have a look at the statistics in IMC.

Icing is just best avoided to be honest. People get away for years flying in it. Then something happens then they don't go near it ever again unless in a suitably equiped aircraft.

[peterh337]

It's a big topic.

Statistically, the chance of hitting another aircraft in IMC are extremely low. For example the UK has zero mid-airs in IMC since WW2.

The chance of getting into a CB is obviously higher, but you need to take a view of the actual and forecast weather. If it is OVC005 and PROB30 TEMPO +TSRA then you can expect embedded CBs which is a problem if you cannot climb into VMC and stay there enroute so you can avoid buildups visually. In most decent conditions (in between fronts, or away from widespread instability) there won't be any CBs. Nevertheless if you are flying a light plane which does not have radar then you need to be careful re the wx in which you fly; see the trip writeups on my website for example on how I go about it; I use very simple methods nowadays. You won't get a 99% despatch rate unless you have the equipment and performance.

Same goes for icing. It's to do with avoiding IMC enroute if the temperatures are below 0C - which they usually are at Eurocontrol levels.

A stormscope is good in that if it is showing something concentrated you definitely don't want to go there, but you can get powerful turbulence with it showing nothing.

Satellite wx is too delayed to be good for tactical wx avoidance. It's also an expensive add-on (Avidyne MLX770 etc).

In this business, you pick how much you want to pay and that determines your mission capability for a given size of your and passengers' balls

[Whopity]

the UK has zero mid-airs in IMC since WW2.

Not quite, an RAF Victor hit a Canberra over Holt on 19th August 1968

[Krallu]

Ok thx.

This proves I am not alone in my fears.

My first missions will be flights with lets say OVC or SCT 1000-1500 ft cloud base.

Me flying on top or in IMC on approx 3000-4000 ft somewhere. A distance for only 30 minutes flight to another airport and ILS down.

This shouldnt be too tricky to manage.

I fly in europe and I don't think we have the inflight wx information on screen that US does. We can of course ask for metars and taf during flight.

The mid-ari collision I think is very low because where I fly there is mandatory to get flight information from flight control even if you fly in G airspace if you fly IFR. Then you can plan to get separation.

Most fear I think is CBs. Have this picture in mind I am in IMC and then for a second I come out of IMC seeing the biggest CB black scary cloud in front of me close so I don't have time to react. I am entering it and everything goes black like in the night.

[mad_jock]

Other thing to have and make plans for is your alternates. Just because the book says you only need one have a couple of others planned for.

And if you doing practical training type flights. Go somewhere then go-around and actually go where you want to go.

[Pace]

Krallu

You can run through training and end up with a string of qualifications and NO experience.
Experience is not having someone there to make decisions for you but making your own, Experience is practical flying where you will venture intentionally or otherwise into the things that you do fear.
I ran into a large CB over Dublin 10 plus years ago in a Seneca twin routing uk to Shannon.
Aircraft autopilot got knocked out Aircraft dropped 1000 feet from its airways FL120, radios mass of crackle then got struck by lightning which hit the left wing a few feet from me.
Great for the teeth whiteneing and giving the hair that disco lift look but no major harm
Dublin put me onto the ILS and I swear we were setting off lightning bolts all the way down the ILS.
Dublin had been temporary closed with a string of around 14 jet aircraft waiting and all refuelling stopped.
That is one tiny example but that and many more add up to experience.
It is the unknown which scares you.
I am not saying fly yourself into CBs at all but at some time you will experience working around CBs and finding a way through. You will also learn how to visually read them and to instinctively know which way to go but you will not always get things 100% right.
That includes all manner of things you will experience in flight in the future which will all add up to experience from weather to failures of one kind and another!
May I also add flying in cloud where flying instruments becomes such second nature that you can be thinking about the forthcoming weekends golf!

Pace

[mad_jock]

And on the subject of lighting strikes.

They can get you out the side of a cloud as well which I considered quite unsporting when when got me.

Just think of real IFR as a series of underpants changes as your experence increases. Then when you can go a year without having a bum twitcher you are officially a grumpy auld cynical bastard like the rest of the auld timers presuming everyone and everything is out to kill you.

[peterh337]

Krallu - you need to sort out modern ways of getting weather data. It sounds like you have not had anything more than a basic PPL level of instruction, which is pretty much the norm for new JAA IR pilots.

Cloud base is very little to do with what is "in there". Do have a look at my original reply to you.

[Dg800]

Fear is a good thing when engaging in anything even remotely dangerous. It's what keeps you alert and questioning your every decision. Experience will dampen the fear and help you manage it, you should however never become "fearless" as being dead is often the following step, which you might get to in short order if you become really careless.
Ciao,

Dg800

[peterh337]

Fear is a good thing when engaging in anything even remotely dangerous

I disagree. Fear is what drives animals to flee. It is better to engage one's brain; that's what it is there for. It can be a useful tool at times

You can live in fear, or you can get clued-up on how to do it intelligently.

I prefer the 2nd one

Here is a start.

[foxmoth]

Started my commercial flying with Aztec and Chieftain around the UK, yes we had deicing, but no wx radar, surprising how little in the UK you need it. In the winter, yes icing can be a problem, but read the forecasts and you might be surprised how often you can fly even without that, if you are heading for areas of Spain or other bits of the world that are more prone to CBs you might need to think harder about storms copes etc.

[Dg800]

I disagree. Fear is what drives animals to flee.

You're confusing fear with panic! Fear is the emotional awareness of a present danger, it can ultimately lead to flight but only after you have evaluated the situation and decided flight is the most appropriate reaction.
Once you no longer perceive what you're doing as inherently dangerous, i.e. when it becomes "just another day at the office", is when it really gets dangerous, and not only in aviation.

[peterh337]

Sure, but isn't it better to advise somebody how to make the assessment, than to tell him to be afraid?

This is one of my favourite criticisms of the private pilot training business. They use phrases like "better to be down and wishing you were up than to be up and wishing you were down" as an excuse for piss poor training. Today, with the internet, it is possible to make a reasonably good broad assessment of what sort of wx you can expect to encounter.

yes we had deicing, but no wx radar, surprising how little in the UK you need it. In the winter, yes icing can be a problem, but read the forecasts and you might be surprised how often you can fly even without that

I have never seen a forecast of "icing" which was any good.

Sure one can infer there might be icing, from a look at the MSLP chart showing some nasty front, but one doesn't need an "icing" forecast for that.

My own experience (TB20) is that some ice is picked up almost anytime one spends some time (say 30+ mins) in IMC below 0C. It's very random but if you do that enroute you will pick some up.

Also I suspect you are referring to low level flying. Much of the "heavier piston twin" community does that, and a lot of commercial piston flying (the Islanders etc) is done that way because of non-pressurisation. However, my understanding of the OP was that he is flying on an IR, outside the UK, so any IFR he will be doing, officially, will be at Eurocontrol airway levels and above. Most of that is below 0C, most of the year.

[englishal]

The thing about IFR is to be well prepared. Know what the weather is going to do, know what you are going to do if the weather is not as predicted and then stick to your limits. Understand the weather, icing, CB formation etc.....


(Ahem, I ran into a CB over Scotland once - Weather was Temp/Prob30 Cb's etc, so we took off out of Edinburgh is 300 OC, climbed on top at about 4k to see Cbs all over the place. As we approached Oban we were back into the IMC at FL60 or thereabouts - we popped out briefly to see the wall of a CB directly ahead - it was dark, rough and noisy with the rain on the aircraft and in the end a 60 degree bank turn to head for the light bit got us out of it. That is the only time that I thought holy f**k I really hope we survive this!)

[Pace]

I have done a lot of piston twin stuff in differing aircraft with differing levels of equipment, some with basic old GPS units, some with radar some without.
If you want to get a pretty high mission success profile you have to work with what you have and be able through experience to be able to read weather visually and instinctively be able to know where ice will be and how to get out of it!
Gizmos and pilot aids are great and I do not want to diminish their benefits but they should add to your skills not replace them!
It is only experience and not fear but respect for the dangers therein which will turn you into a confident IMC pilot !

Pace

[peterh337]

I don't think I have a single gizmo in the cockpit which really helps with immediate wx ahead.

I have a stormscope but have never found it useful for tactical wx avoidance, given an appropriate choice of the general wx before the flight.

[mad_jock]

Never used a storm scope what does it pick up?

The wx radar we have although primate crap is very usefull for dodging round the nasty bits.