Is there a pilot onboard?
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Always a fun game is both roll and elevator jam but one person has the pitch and the other the roll after disconnect.
Who then gets the power levers and who gets the rudders.
First time we did it, it was a bit of fun and we managed a max xwind landing and even a windshear event.
Conclusion afterwards was it was actually a good CRM training session more than any benefit from the flying skill side of things.
Anyway you could have control.
Its a bit like who gets to treat Prince Philip, nobody wants to have that one on there record if they ahave 20 years plus left to go for a career
Who then gets the power levers and who gets the rudders.
First time we did it, it was a bit of fun and we managed a max xwind landing and even a windshear event.
Conclusion afterwards was it was actually a good CRM training session more than any benefit from the flying skill side of things.
Anyway you could have control.
Its a bit like who gets to treat Prince Philip, nobody wants to have that one on there record if they ahave 20 years plus left to go for a career
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They are different! for a start and this is a big important bit the sim has no inertia the real aircraft and you have tons of it.
Sim really are glorified MSFS with a real cockpit and they go up and down and left and right.
I would concur with MJ. He and I might make a safe landing if we were not fighting over who had control
Pace
Sim really are glorified MSFS with a real cockpit and they go up and down and left and right.
I would concur with MJ. He and I might make a safe landing if we were not fighting over who had control
Pace
I am not a training captain with x000s of hours and only have the sim hours I did for my IR (basically a procedural simulator) and a couple of joy rides in an a 320 sim at LHR. I found the procedure trainer quite a bit more twitchy in pitch than a real light aircraft (probably due to the lack of G feedback from pitch changes). But the A 320 reasonably OK (as it does have some reasonable feedback of G changes). While I have no idea if the a 320 has a 'game/captain' switch that makes it 'easy', in the configuration I was provided (sitting on a taxi way engines running FMS loaded with a SID and the destination), it was reasonably straightforward to taxi out, departure, follow the SID, due a bit of airwork and then manually land off the ILS (in VMC, but it was loaded so I could track the localiser and glideslope) and purely visually.
The main thing I remember about the throttles was 'when the aircraft calls you a retard it is time to close the throttles and flair' - I have a suspicion on the Airbus the 'manual' flight still has auto throttle to manage your speed on approach as it seemed very easy.
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I regularly have the chance to do some flying in a real level D 767 sim. The first time I did this was when I had about 250 hours as PPL on Cessna's. To put short, I was not able to land the beast back then, even I did know the aircraft systems very well (e.g. no problem to program the FMC etc).
During takeoff I was kinda surprised about the effort needed to stay on centreline at those faster speeds, maybe also because of the acceleration feeling that you don't have in small planes. During landing I was way too slow with throttle adjustments, so I stalled it at 1000ft. An airliner needs more energy management and reacting before things happen.
The second time I put it down quite well, but when A real pilot faints and the stewardess asks you to fly it, you only get 1 chance.
During takeoff I was kinda surprised about the effort needed to stay on centreline at those faster speeds, maybe also because of the acceleration feeling that you don't have in small planes. During landing I was way too slow with throttle adjustments, so I stalled it at 1000ft. An airliner needs more energy management and reacting before things happen.
The second time I put it down quite well, but when A real pilot faints and the stewardess asks you to fly it, you only get 1 chance.
Fascinating thread. I've also had a few sim rides, ranging from a Gnat (now that was interesting!) to a Level D 737NG and managed a night IGS into Kai Tak without requiring a life-jacket 
If I was faced with this scenario, and there was a successful outcome, I would not be worried about whether I could log the time.
I would be more worried about what to say when a very grateful airline manager tries to give me a life-time First Class pass as a thank you gift.
The correct answer is "No thanks, talk to my lawyer about my salvage claim,"
If I was faced with this scenario, and there was a successful outcome, I would not be worried about whether I could log the time.
I would be more worried about what to say when a very grateful airline manager tries to give me a life-time First Class pass as a thank you gift.
The correct answer is "No thanks, talk to my lawyer about my salvage claim,"
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I would be more worried about what to say when a very grateful airline manager tries to give me a life-time First Class pass as a thank you gift.
In today's security environment the major hurdle might be for anyone letting a prospective PPL hero onto the flight deck in the first place, plus ATC and the MOD flipping out and sending fighters up to "assist".
Other than that, there are PPL's and PPL's.
A PPL with a couple of hundred hours on a complex plane and the benefit of high fidelity flight sim experience could almost certainly pull it off, provided the airplane is in a workable shape. If that PPL has a multi engine and IR additionally to that experience so much the better. Someone whose idea of a complex airplane is a Cessna 172, probably not.
It is not such a big thing to fly a normally working airliner, but everything you know more than the next guy will help.
Closest thing I ever came to doing something like that was in an A320 sim. We had booked a different airplane type but that sim went tech, so they offered us the A320. The instructor however said he had no idea how the A320 works but could run the instructor station only. I took on the challenge and it worked out just fine, thanks to an A320 simulation I had tested and flown a lot on a PC sim. We did 3 hours and about 10 extended circuits, both VMC and IMC. My "FO"s were total rookies who had no licenses nor ratings nor experience. I did the first few myself and then assisted the others. Great experience.
Apart from that experience, I've handled sims for most of the commonly available airliners and as long as the airplane works, I'd not be overly concerned if I had to do the real thing, yet of course I hope it will never happen. I've had one MD80 sim which was sufficiently tech that that 4 hour session turned into serious work. AP defective, FD broken on one side and a few other snags... ended up handflying it for the whole time and raw data too. We didn't bend it despite of that.
If anyone wants to "prepare" for such an eventuality, it might help to put together a couple of key points for each airplane on travels on. I've seen such checklists done for people who had to do sim checks to be accepted for an airline. These little gems help a lot, I use them in software testing whenever I don't get proper docs with the software.
As others have said here, the major problem will be nerves and the said security concerns. Which cabin crew these days would let a perfect stranger into the FD?
Other than that, there are PPL's and PPL's.
A PPL with a couple of hundred hours on a complex plane and the benefit of high fidelity flight sim experience could almost certainly pull it off, provided the airplane is in a workable shape. If that PPL has a multi engine and IR additionally to that experience so much the better. Someone whose idea of a complex airplane is a Cessna 172, probably not.
It is not such a big thing to fly a normally working airliner, but everything you know more than the next guy will help.
Closest thing I ever came to doing something like that was in an A320 sim. We had booked a different airplane type but that sim went tech, so they offered us the A320. The instructor however said he had no idea how the A320 works but could run the instructor station only. I took on the challenge and it worked out just fine, thanks to an A320 simulation I had tested and flown a lot on a PC sim. We did 3 hours and about 10 extended circuits, both VMC and IMC. My "FO"s were total rookies who had no licenses nor ratings nor experience. I did the first few myself and then assisted the others. Great experience.
Apart from that experience, I've handled sims for most of the commonly available airliners and as long as the airplane works, I'd not be overly concerned if I had to do the real thing, yet of course I hope it will never happen. I've had one MD80 sim which was sufficiently tech that that 4 hour session turned into serious work. AP defective, FD broken on one side and a few other snags... ended up handflying it for the whole time and raw data too. We didn't bend it despite of that.
If anyone wants to "prepare" for such an eventuality, it might help to put together a couple of key points for each airplane on travels on. I've seen such checklists done for people who had to do sim checks to be accepted for an airline. These little gems help a lot, I use them in software testing whenever I don't get proper docs with the software.
As others have said here, the major problem will be nerves and the said security concerns. Which cabin crew these days would let a perfect stranger into the FD?
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There have been a number of occasions in which a cabin crew member has "helped" after one of the two cockpit members. Can't see a passenger being allowed to do this:
Flight Attendant Lands Plane in a Pinch / Flight attendant helps land plane at O'Hare [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Air Canada flight attendant helped land plane after co-pilot breakdown: report - World - CBC News
They both had CPLs - but a bit different. I doubt that would happen in the UK though (and I doubt even more whether a passenger would be asked to do the same job!
Flight Attendant Lands Plane in a Pinch / Flight attendant helps land plane at O'Hare [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Air Canada flight attendant helped land plane after co-pilot breakdown: report - World - CBC News
They both had CPLs - but a bit different. I doubt that would happen in the UK though (and I doubt even more whether a passenger would be asked to do the same job!
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Nice to know this topic keeps coming up ... and the same optimistic ppls reply. But hey! it might just be possible to land an Airbus if both pilots have died, the ppl has lots of MSFS experience, the aircraft is operating in normal mode, the emergency happened conveniently near the destination airport, you are in touch with ATC, and the wx is good.
But what if it's at night in the ITCZ, the weather is appalling, you are more than 2 hours flying time from land, your nav systems are degraded, the only ATC available is HF sideband radio, and you are 'hand flying' due to degraded sensor inputs. Dream on
But what if it's at night in the ITCZ, the weather is appalling, you are more than 2 hours flying time from land, your nav systems are degraded, the only ATC available is HF sideband radio, and you are 'hand flying' due to degraded sensor inputs. Dream on
Apparently when the call goes out 'is there a doctor on board?' a substantial proportion of the people who volunteer... aren't. Something like one in ten, off the top of my head. As a result of this, cabin crew often have to ask for proof of medical training before accepting help, and inevitably many real doctors are turned down - which in an emergency can be quite a distressing thing for both doctor and patient.
I have a horrible feeling that if the call goes out, 'is there a pilot on board?' there would be an even higher proportion of impostors.
I have a horrible feeling that if the call goes out, 'is there a pilot on board?' there would be an even higher proportion of impostors.
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I would be absolutely astounded if the simulation didn't reasonably faithfully handle the inertia -
But its very digital in responce ie you do the same thing 6 times in a row and the outcome will be the same. In a real aircraft do the same thing 6 times and you will get 6 slightly different results. Mainly due to the fact than an aircraft is flying in an analoge eviroment with a vast number of variables which the sim doesn't bother with for either they are to difficult to introduce or take to much computation time.
You have to learn to fly the sim after real flying. Alot of automatic responces in the aircraft play merry hell with the sim and you can end up over controlling. And vice versa some of the things you do in the sim won't have the desired effect in the aircraft. The sim is very much by numbers the aircraft more of a fluid control responce.
