Flight attendant helps land plane at O'Hare

[Mark in CA]

An unidentified San Francisco-based American Airlines flight attendant abandoned her beverage cart and put on a radio headset, replacing the ill first officer in the right seat of the 767 jumbo jet's flight deck to help the captain during the landing. The flight landed without incident, and passengers were never aware anything was different.

Flight attendant helps land plane at O'Hare - chicagotribune.com (http://goo.gl/fZtv)

[vanHorck]

The CC also happened to have a CPL...

[411A]

Next...she'll want a pilot seniority number:rolleyes:

[stickandrudderman]

Funny how the Airline are quick to grab the credit for employing such resourceful staff, even they didn't give her a job as a FO!

[Opinel]

Wouldn`t she need an ATPL for that? Does AA offer ab initio training?

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

767 jumbo jet :confused::confused::confused:

What's one of those???

[stator vane]

any aircraft that has more than 6 seats that doesn't sound like a harley!

did you sit by the window during your commercial training? Ha!

[Checkboard]

767 jumbo jet

:confused::confused::confused:

What's one of those???

The original definition of a "jumbo jet" was any of the widebody (twin-isle) jets built in the late 60s & 70s. i.e. DC-10, L1011, 767 & (of course) the 747.

As the biggest (well, until the A380), the 747 eventually appropriated sole use of the name.

[Matt101]

Wouldn`t she need an ATPL for that? Does AA offer ab initio training?

No. I don't have an ATPL, yet. But I know what you mean I am just a pedant today.

Good on the FA, hope they find use for their CPL again sometime if that's what they want (obviously not in the same circumstances).

More to the point, I often think the brief introduction to radio operation etc. would be useful as part of the CC training. I know calling the ground is the last of your worries if the proverbial has hit the fan to the extent that nobody else has the ability to use the Radio but, fighting chance and all that.

[clunckdriver]

Dorris Day would be proud of her!

[protectthehornet]

well done...few people know that Doris Day, in the film "Julie" , had to land a DC4 at KSFO.

[Lon More]

Well if BA expect their pilots to start throwing sandwiches why shouldn't an FA land a plane?

[Octane]

"One pilot is fully capable of flying a Boeing 767. In fact, the sophisticated plane, equipped with an array of computers, can fly and land by itself."

Really? I'll have to tell my brother he'd best start looking for a new job then....

Do they read the stuff before they print it? Do editors still exist?

[BOAC]

Well done to the c/crew.
Octane - what do you see as wrong in that quote for the masses?

[170to5]

octane

of course they read it...problem is that they're completely uninformed and are, as usual, making guesses based on the usual misconceptions that people have about flying.

well done to the two of them though! and as if by magic, a perfect example of the risks of this sort of thing:

Embraer reveals vision for single-pilot airliners (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/16/343348/embraer-reveals-vision-for-single-pilot-airliners.html)

[Checkboard]

Octane - what do you see as wrong in that quote for the masses?

... because it's not an autonomous system? :rolleyes: The quote would imply that it is possible for the aircraft to be instructed to land with an empty cockpit. An auto-land capable autopilot only does 30% of the job. Someone still needs to program it, and put the wheels down, and put the flaps down, and control the speed, and ....

[MagnusP]

Checkboard: While you're absolutely correct in what you say, conceptually all of that could be done remotely, as with RPVs or, for that matter, with unmanned spacecraft. I'd prefer to know there was a warm, breathing and qualified body at the pointy end in case of a tango uniform situation, but the beancounters are probably keeping an eye on things . . .

[BOAC]

Hmm! I see several sets of knickers reaching red-line temps here:)

a) Written for the masses
b) Certainly the 737 can 'fly and land itself'
c) Standard teaching (where I come from anyway) is for single-pilot ops to 'let the a/c land itself'
d) Nowhere did it actually say you don't need any pilots
e) "The quote would imply that it is possible for the aircraft to be instructed to land with an empty cockpit." - I think you made that bit up?
f) Any 'masses' on here think that way?

Cold compresses, nurse!

[WALKINONCLOUDS]

Flight attendant turned co-pilot: 'I don't feel like a hero' (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/flight-attendant-co-pilot-ohare-attendant-helps-lands-plane.html)

June 16, 2010 6:54 AM | 7 Comments (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/flight-attendant-co-pilot-ohare-attendant-helps-lands-plane.html#comments) | UPDATED STORY

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/deluna1jpg.jpg Patti DeLuna hadn't piloted a plane in about 20 years until this week.
Back then, it was a small Cessna. On Monday, she quickly stepped up to a Boeing 767 airliner.
DeLuna, 61, an American Airlines flight attendant, helped her captain land the jumbo jet at O'Hare International Airport (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/flight-attendant-helps-pilot-land-plane.html) after the flight's first officer fell ill with stomach flu.
"I was the best available (back-up pilot) they had on the plane,'' DeLuna said Tuesday from her California home. "I spent a lot of time in the cockpit looking at the flight deck panel and asking questions. My first question to the captain was, 'Where are the brakes?' ''

Get the full story: Flight attendant turned co-pilot: 'I don't feel like a hero' (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/flight-attendant-co-pilot-ohare-attendant-helps-lands-plane.html).

[Saintsman]

I'm going to keep up my Flight Sim skills - you never know when they might be needed ;)

Will be even more important when flying single pilot Embraers!

[pattern_is_full]

I'd just call this an intelligent use of CRM (Cabin Resource Management). :D

[subsonicsubic]

Embrace this...recent incidents highlight inherent incompetencies in flight deck crew anyway. Maybe she was more current on recent technologies than the cockpit team anyhow.

Respect to her and her role in this incident. Having someone comfortable with nav and comms makes for a much less stressful approach and landing than without.

A job well done and a good example of CRM ( Cabin Resource Management).
:ok:

[Flightmech]

Only 61? One of their younger ones then!:E

[PaperTiger]

I didn't know Karen Black (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071110) was still alive.

[yowieII]

Re Embraer going single pilot, I would suggest that they get their two pilot airplane(s) sorted first:hmm:

[Checkboard]

Mr BOAC - you asked, and I answered. :) No knicker twisting.

d) Nowhere did it actually say you don't need any pilots

im·ply
Pronunciation: \im-ˈplī\
Function: transitive verb
To involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement.

Perhaps English isn't your first tongue?

e) "The quote would imply that it is possible for the aircraft to be instructed to land with an empty cockpit." - I think you made that bit up?

Yes, I made it up. It's called "setting forth an argument". ;)

[Nardi Riviera]

Interesting. Hmmm - somehow "deja vu" :ooh:

Wasn't there a similar occurrence a while ago, posted here?

Tried a search, but my english obviously isn't good enough.

[Uncle_Jay]

I wonder if anyone has thought out the reason why AA did that. Seems obvious to me... if one pilot got sick, the other might follow rapidly, and the airplane will NOT land itself by any stretch. Good decision on AA's part.

[oceancrosser]

I wonder if anyone has thought out the reason why AA did that. Seems obvious to me... if one pilot got sick, the other might follow rapidly, and the airplane will NOT land itself by any stretch. Good decision on AA's part.

:confused: :confused: :confused: AA did what?

[Jumbo744]

Isn't that story a bit blown out of proportion? I mean, OK, it's a nice media story for the general public, but what exactly has she done in the cockpit? read the checklists, tune in radio and nav? I think that would be all. I'm glad she said she didn't feel like a hero.

[TightSlot]

Somehow, in amongst all of the supposed wit and wisdom displayed so far on this thread there doesn't appear to have been anybody prepared to offer congratulations to both the operating pilot and the FA for following procedure correctly and landing the aircraft safely.

I'm aware that there may have been no immediate 'danger' but it was certainly an abnormal circumstance, and surely deserves some degree of recognition, or indeed, anything more adult than some of the above?

[stepwilk]

"but what exactly has she done in the cockpit?"

We don't know, but as a current CPL, even if she only flies Piper and Cessna singles, she would be perfectly capable of setting the flaps and lowering the gear at the PF's command, handling all comm with approach and local controls, and being an extra set of eyes. Which in fact much of what the PNF does anyway.

[RatherBeFlying]

There are airlines that give the CC training in helping out when a pilot is disabled plus CRM so that the pilots know how to make use of CC if that's the best available.

Yes, the beasts will fly just fine with just one pilot, but an extra pair of eyes and ears plus help with workload going into ORD improves the operation.

Sounds to me like the SOPs were followed:ok:

[PaperTiger]

I'm aware that there may have been no immediate 'danger' but it was certainly an abnormal circumstance, and surely deserves some degree of recognition, or indeed, anything more adult than some of the above?A well done to PF certainly. As already opined the FA's part was considerably less, and AA is making too much of it IMHO.

Now off to JB with the whole thing then !

[AMF]

At both airlines I worked for in the U.S. it was written into the manual as SOP that in the event of 1 pilot in a 2-pilot crew being incapacitated, time permitting, an F/A would be placed in the jump seat, don a headset, and serve as an extra set of eyes, ears, and read checklists as instructed. The F/A is also there to help immobilize/calm the incapacitated pilot (if he can't be removed from the seat, or wakes up incoherent) and administer whatever first aid can be rendered, allowing the other pilot to concentrate on flying the airplane.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

After touch down her first comment was "now i'm a pilot can I bitch and moan like you" :\

[Tri-To-Start]

I'm aware that there may have been no immediate 'danger' but it was certainly an abnormal circumstance, and surely deserves some degree of recognition, or indeed, anything more adult than some of the above?

First of all don't call me Shirley.

Secondly this was a wise decision in the event that another situation had occured at the same time. The potential for multiple problems cascading all at once is the biggest risk. This was a wise decision.

[protectthehornet]

No. There are tens of thousands of pilots who are more qualified than she is. 300 hours , 20 years ago isn't much as we all know.

I do think it would be quite nice of American Airlines to pay off her mortgage, or do something ''nice'' for her. Even offer her a free type rating on top of the mortgage thing.

Did the captain do right? Sure.

The big question is, why did the copilot get sick? Was he sick before the trip and was afraid to call in sick?

I know one bizare situation in which the female captain, just under 6 months pregnant, did one more flight...and ended up on the cabin floor with dozens of blankets and being rushed to a hospital on landing...baby related of course. She was about one day from the cutoff for pregnant pilots being grounded.

A deadheading captain came up to the cockpit...though it brings another interesting question...who was in command? Legally, I would think the FO was, the captain being incapacitated...but one could argue that the other captain took over...but I digress.

This is a non event and shouldn't have found its way into the national headlines.

She didn't have her hand on the wheel for landing, did she?

[robertbartsch]

Great job - ...glad she was there and could help.

I suppose, if every flight attendant was licensed, we would only need one up front.

[Tri-To-Start]

I bet the captain simply gave her a short briefing, told her to put on the headset and then said "touch nothing".

Having her upfront could have prevented a disaster if another unforseen event had occured at about the same time. (ie the swiss cheese analogy). If something else had happened she could have handled communications, navigation, read emergency checklists, etc.

It was a wonderful example of CRM but there's hardly any heroism involved. It's just a great example of a professional flight crew doing what needed to be done given the situation.

It's nice to see these examples surface in the media but is was probably pretty uneventful up front.

[stator vane]

thanks for the photo--she has taken good care of herself!

oh, must throw some congrats in here as well.

-ah about the flying bit as well.

having her sit next to you, would make any one's flying skills improve!

[Wildfire101]

Jumbo 744

"....but what exactly has she done in the cockpit? read the checklists, tune in radio and nav? I think that would be all. I'm glad she said she didn't feel like a hero."

Are you serious? surely all you've managed to do is de-value the role of the FO - as someone who has to repeatedly justify my position and that of my staff, I'd be dissapointed if one of them had used similar phrasology in defining a colleagues job!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

these comments add weight to the Embrear Single Pilot arguement

[Alpine Flyer]

Having someone on the flightdeck to assist is nothing more than good CRM, even if it's not in the specific airline's SOPs.

[old-timer]

I concur with Alpine , it makes sense to use all available CR, it's just good common sense CRM really, hats off to all concerned - personally, if I ran an airline (unlikely !) I'd want to have as many cabin crew folk as possible to have at least some flying knowledge but then I'm old school from the days when bean counters didn't rule the roost :ok: :D

(in-coming, I can sense the flak approaching already ! - tin hats on folks !):eek:

[mary meagher]

Cabin crew should certainly be encouraged to have flying skills, and be able to use the radio. Just as partners of pilots in light aircraft are encouraged to undergo a basic survival course in how to use the radio, call for help, and land it if the PIC snuffs it enroute.

Having gone through the scenario on a BA111 simulator at Cranebank, with 30 hours PPL, I did push the wrong button initially (disconecting the autopilot) but on being allowed a second chance, was talked down successfully at LHR....

So if pilots are incapacitated, and it does happen, perhaps even the most basic training would be better than nothing.

[marchino61]

A thought just occurred to me (don't take this too seriously, just thinking out loud). Maybe airlines should ban downroute socialising between pilots? After all, if they both ate in the same restaurant they could both have come down with the "stomache flu" together.

Then what would they have done?

[p51guy]

The captain didn't need anybody in the cockpit to sit in the right seat. He chose to because it fit into our CRM thinking. She could do little to help if he could reach the gear and flap handle. Reading the checklist was nice but not neccessary. He could have done it. I occasionally flew the Citation single pilot jet solo and didn't feel overworked at all. Airliners work about the same. Nice she could get some good press though.

[BOAC]

An excellent decision and praiseworthy for all concerned.

Let's just think OUTSIDE the sky-god box for a moment. Suppose the Captain had chosen that part of the flight to have a coronary? What would YOU prefer in the right-hand seat - seat cushions or someone with basic flying skills and an ability to talk on the radio and possibly set up an autoland? Simples.

[p51guy]

Yes, multiple incapacitations is always a possibility. In 2012, the end of the Mayan calendar, we probably should schedule to avoid the rapture from causing multiple pilotless airplanes too. It was nice she had a little experience and was a back up but the press went nuts over this story. I think people have to realize this was another non event blown out of proportion by the press.

[TightSlot]

I think people have to realize this was another non event blown out of proportion by the press

Most people have already done so, and quietly discounted the sensationalist coverage whilst recognising and appreciating the professionalism of those involved.

Many airlines have an SOP for FA's to assist on the flightdeck in minor ways during pilot incap events. Your own experience appears to indicate that this would be unnecessary: Sadly, not all may agree.

[p51guy]

I agree. We will put this topic to sleep.

[Jumbo744]

I am sorry but you can't compare the role of an F/O, who, just like the captain, is absolutely qualified to fly the plane and trained for, and has experience on it, and the role of someone unprepared with just basic flying skills sitting in the right seat of a B767 because of special circumstances.

In my eyes, a "hero" would be the young man that landed a King Air 200 after the Pilot died while climbing out of somewhere in Florida (2 month ago i think).

I strongly believe that Embraer's Single Pilot vision will never see the light. If it does, I'll never accept to be a passenger in a single pilot plane and I think most of the public will do the same.

[stepwilk]

"...with just basic flying skills sitting in the right seat of a B767 because of special circumstances."

You must know a lot about that, since your profile shows you to currently be a VFR single-engine "commercial pilot." Might that be a flight instructor in 150s?

I don't think anybody is claiming that the media coverage was overblown, but I'm also tired of so many people claiming--perhaps because she's a woman, perhaps because she's a mere "flight attendant"--that she didn't have perfectly useful skills. Nobody is saying she grabbed a fistful of throttles and put that puppy down and made the first high-speed turnoff, but let's admit that what she needed to do, she was quite able to do.

[Jumbo744]

Where do you come up with that "because she is a woman" stuff?

don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she was useless, all I'm saying is that this story is overblown.

You say "let's admit that what she needed to do, she was quite able to do", well tell us, what did she do?

You mentionned my experience. I have to update this, I have just passed my Multi-Engine flight test on Friday, and IFR flight test is planned for Wednesday. I'm flying to Africa next week to start my first job as a King Air F/O.

If you had put me in that 767 cockpit, i don't see what i could have done to help the captain: maybe read the checklists, turn on the lights, bring down the gear, comms. Not enough to make the news headline me thinks.

I'm really interested to hear from B767 captains on this forum about what tasks they would have assigned to the FA in such circumstances.

[stepwilk]

Well, that's great news about your upgrades, congratulations! Seriously.

And what you say about the story being overblown is just what I said, so we're in total agreement there.

I'm just annoyed by the constant downplaying of what she might have done, both on this forum and on the very popular U. S. blog "Ask the Pilot," on Salon.

Here's what she might have done, and it's pretty much what any PNF might have done: Handled the comms, set the altimeters, put out flaps and gear, and looked out for VFR traffic. I think anybody with 300 hours on a CPL, even if it was years ago, would be able to do that. People also seem to think 300 hours barely lets you leave the traffic pattern, which is ridiculous. I was flying serious turbo twins into and out of high-density terminals when I had 300 hours, though granted it was 35 years ago.

Yet everybody seems to think that all she did was fart into the seatcushions. Obviously maybe the PF assigned her no duties at all, I don't know.

And where did the "because she's a woman stuff" come from? Perhaps just decades of hearing peoples' reactions when I tell people my wife's a pilot too, with a handful of ratings including multi-engine.

[Jumbo744]

thanks!

I understand your position and now I get a clearer picture of what she could have done. The way the media reported the story annoyed me, my bad...

[PaperTiger]

And what you say about the story being overblown is just what I said, so we're in total agreement there.It might have been what you meant to post, but in fact you said the opposite. (post 53). Just a finger-slip, I'm sure.

To judge someone a 'hero' in aviation I use these incidents as yardsticks:
1) The BOAC flight attendant who went back into the fire to try to save passengers and perished herself.
2) The bystander who jumped into the icy Potomac river to save a drowning flight attendant, while the 'first responders' stood around.
3) The Argonaut captain who managed to put it down in the only open space in Stockport.

Performances below this standard are often praiseworthy and sometimes sheer brilliance. Not heroic though.

It's a special accolade and should not be applied to every action which is just slightly beyond the expected level.

[stepwilk]

Yes, PT, you're absolutely right, now that I look back at my post.

Jumbo, have a great time in Africa, hope it's the beginning of a wonderful career!

[protectthehornet]

What made the copilot sick?

this thread?

ba boom bop.

but seriously, who's from out of town?

When a very experienced pilot, in either seat puts the flaps down...does he set the handle and look out the window? or does he set the handle and watch the indicator to make sure it goes to where its supposed to. (and maybe watch the hydraulic gauge to see a bump in pressure, check the airspeed before doing anything and watch airspeed drop after the flaps come down...and and and)

now, what did the FA do?

I'm glad she had a pilot's license, and she did fine. But this whole thread is a bit off the beaten track.


(by looking out the window, I meant forgetting to monitor the flaps, not to actually see the flaps...I am sorry for the confusing phraseology)

[stepwilk]

Look out the window at the flaps? Are you flying from coach?

[40&80]

How many times a year do ATC personnel or any personnel on the ground outside of a simulator practice talking a flight attendant alone inside a simulator (Boeing or Airbus and other common types) through the actions necessary to complete a successful auto or manual landing?
The results of anyone even with a PPL or CPL with no previous training on the type or any experience of auto land I think would be very interesting.
With 24 years of auto land experience as a pilot I think I would make a complete
mess of remotely voice instructing even a PPL or a CPL pilot unfamiliar with a
L1011 or B767 on how to achieve an auto land after finding themselves alone in a quiet dark cockpit.

[Final 3 Greens]

40&80

As a PPL, with going on for 300 hours, it took me 15 hours in a sim, with a very good instructor, to be reasonably confident of landing (jet simulated was a 70 tonne aircraft.)

Put me in the RHS of a real jet and I foresee a big hole in the ground.

I'd do my best, it just would not be good enough in all probability.

[BOAC]

Guys - it really IS time to put this to bed!

I (hopefully) leave you with this old adage -"If you are going to crash an aeroplane, better to do it near an airfield rescue service than in the middle of the ocean."

Night night.

[misd-agin]

What would I do with a 300 hr pilot, flown years ago, in the right seat?

Comm? Into ORD!?!?! Absolutely not. "Listen to the radio, back me up with the altitudes, headings and freqs assigned."

I'd point out the radios, mic selectors, speaker volume, auto pilot and auto throttles, along with a very brief overview of the MCP and FMC. Basic overview in the event something stupid happens to me.

Gear and flaps? Nah, it would be easier to reach over and do it myself as opposed to having to teach ground school at 200+ kts.

Final 3 green - the plan would be to have you set up the a/c for an autoland. Hand flying the a/c to a landing, with low experience, is too risky.

[Lonewolf_50]

@p51guy:

In 2012, the end of the Mayan calendar, we probably should schedule to avoid the rapture from causing multiple pilotless airplanes too.

I'll venture a guess that very few pilots will ascend during the Rapture ... :} so the flight safety issue on that day ought to be OK. :ok:

I'll get my coat ...

[JEM60]

PT. Funny you should mention the man who jumped into the Potomac all those years ago. By coincidence, I was relating the story to a non- aviation person earlier today. I still remember this hero's name. Lenny Skutnik. Top man.

[Capn Bloggs]

Every one of my FO and command trainees had their training captain "die" on them at 150nm inbound on a flight during the latter part of their training. If you can't fly a modern jet single-pilot you shouldn't be in the cockpit IMO.

[protectthehornet]

yeah, ok, who are you going to tell your old jokes to if the other pilot goes tango uniform?

[muduckace]

Don't knock it.. scenario, you loose your capt/fo and have a pilot(single who can handle the radios) or tech (who know's type and can assist in the menial procedure of setting (cross confirmed) configurations... Not to say that the hero pic could not doo it all on him or her self.. This is a great Airline story..

[acbus1]

Sensible stuff, provided you know that the available flight attendant is suitable for the task and situation. Sensible if you have sufficient time to brief them on what you want them to do and not do. Very sensible indeed if they have a flying license of any sort. Absolutely essential if you simply want to cover your back at the inevitable enquiry.

Having said all that, with only a typical cabin crew sample to choose from, I'd rather operate single crew than add to my workload for absolutely no good reason. That could be achieved, to some degree, without exposure to punitive action during the enquiry, by confining involvement to the reading out of checklist items (at least, according to any Company procedures I've ever been required to comply with).

[mary meagher]

Okay, I'll bite. All of you highly experienced captains are convinced that no-one could do it better, makes me feel sad for the rest.....

And yet. Back to that BA111 experience at Cranebank. If you are the low time PPL alone in the dark cockpit, and manage to call MAYDAY without turning the autopilot off by mistake, why indeed cannot someone talk you down to an autoland at LHR or the equivalent?

As I recall, all I had to do was set the flaps, reduce the throttle settings, and steer it on the ground. Which has to be better than no help at all, if both your professionals become U/S......however unlikely.

[silverstrata]

.

I hope she remembered to start the stopwatch, so she knew how many minutes to charge at f/o rates.


(thinks...)


Ok, scrap that idea, the f/o rate is probably less than she earns anyway.


.