The lesser of two evils (A hypothetical situation)
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can always get a PAR at Leuchars if you really get in the poo.
Never needed it in all the time I was doing those runs but it was my final reserve plan.
Oh and if you do go high make sure you don't bust P600 as one of the instructors after me did quite spectacularly.
Never needed it in all the time I was doing those runs but it was my final reserve plan.
Oh and if you do go high make sure you don't bust P600 as one of the instructors after me did quite spectacularly.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you do a 180 and.... oh dear, it's now 8/8 there as well! 
Maybe the 100 knot cloud will come with the next stage of global warming
.D.O.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a good day you can see from one side of the country to the other. I know that is impossible in the S'auf 'cos there are so many of you - but up here that is the way it is.
The only time that the 180 will not work is if you are trying to get away from 'the haar' then where you have just been, might suddenly close up - otherwise it is almost unheard of. The weather here might be pretty mixed and Shetland might have 100kt fog - but the rest of the country it takes time to change - much longer than will occur if you do a 180 within the time it takes to cover the high ground. Yes the holes and clouds will have moved but they are still there.
In the earlier reply I mentioned 'getting an idea' of ehat was happening. If cloud is starting to stack up on the windward slopes it will build and rapidly become a solid layer - so you would have to go further and further upwind to get clear of it.
But this is not hard, the high ground usually forces the cloud cover up to ridge height and in many places that is 2000' - that is how Fresson and his chaps made something approaching 99% regularity, flying VFR through this country. They are undoubtedly much braver than most (all?) of us - but that is a dispatch rate (more importantly arrival rate!) that is hard to match with today's equipment.
The only time that the 180 will not work is if you are trying to get away from 'the haar' then where you have just been, might suddenly close up - otherwise it is almost unheard of. The weather here might be pretty mixed and Shetland might have 100kt fog - but the rest of the country it takes time to change - much longer than will occur if you do a 180 within the time it takes to cover the high ground. Yes the holes and clouds will have moved but they are still there.
In the earlier reply I mentioned 'getting an idea' of ehat was happening. If cloud is starting to stack up on the windward slopes it will build and rapidly become a solid layer - so you would have to go further and further upwind to get clear of it.
But this is not hard, the high ground usually forces the cloud cover up to ridge height and in many places that is 2000' - that is how Fresson and his chaps made something approaching 99% regularity, flying VFR through this country. They are undoubtedly much braver than most (all?) of us - but that is a dispatch rate (more importantly arrival rate!) that is hard to match with today's equipment.
Last edited by gasax; 25th Sep 2012 at 12:36.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its already here in Sumburgh and Wick.
SSD
The point I was trying to make is if you are high enough above the tops you will not be caught by surprise. I am also assuming the forecast has been noted.
D.O.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe the 100 knot cloud will come with the next stage of global warming
Wx can close in behind you. At least it can in England to my certain knowlege, and forecasts are always to be taken as advice, not as gospel, in my book.No, I've not flown much in Scotland (but have quite a bit in Snowdonia). I don't doubt the locals have been scud running in mountainous Scotland for ever and some have even survived decades of so doing. No doubt experience is an important factor where low cloud, high hills, VFR, and aeroplanes mix.
My point was aimed at the OP, who says he is not experienced. If you know the area well and how the local wx pans out and you have your 'outs' for when it doesn't do what you expected then fine.
Are there many wrecks on those hills? There is in Wales, in the Peak District (much tamer than Scotland), and even on the Wrekin (the only hill for miles around).
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't forget to look for 'mtw' on the met office wind charts. Mountain Wave - the stuff you had a brush with a few months back. If it's forecast use that low level around the mountains route.
RASPtableGM
This is the website glider pilots use to work out if it's a wave day. You need to check in the morning of the day you plan to fly. Click the 'press for full parameter set' button and then select 'vertical velocity at 850mb'. Green & yellow strips, maybe with some red, = wave probably around. Easterly wave is showing right now.
RASP will also show if it's going to be thermic.
RASPtableGM
This is the website glider pilots use to work out if it's a wave day. You need to check in the morning of the day you plan to fly. Click the 'press for full parameter set' button and then select 'vertical velocity at 850mb'. Green & yellow strips, maybe with some red, = wave probably around. Easterly wave is showing right now.
RASP will also show if it's going to be thermic.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surprisingly there are very few light AC wrecks in the hills in Scotland. Maybe because many Scottish pilots are familiar with the weather and the geography. On the other hand there are loads of military crash sites.
There are more cases of CFIT in England. It may be that the flatlanders of the south east don't think that much about hills then get caught out by a 600 ft bump in the scenery.
I agree scud running is not a great idea but the OP did state broken 3000ft + cloud base. I don't think the OP is that much of a beginner. Just unfamiliar with flying in Scotland. Judging by his many previous posts he is hungry to learn and seems determined not to be caught out by ignorance.
Edited to add; I would have thought the 11000ft + peaks in California will have had their own challenge for him but I suppose the weather has different characteristics.
D.O.
There are more cases of CFIT in England. It may be that the flatlanders of the south east don't think that much about hills then get caught out by a 600 ft bump in the scenery.
I agree scud running is not a great idea but the OP did state broken 3000ft + cloud base. I don't think the OP is that much of a beginner. Just unfamiliar with flying in Scotland. Judging by his many previous posts he is hungry to learn and seems determined not to be caught out by ignorance.
Edited to add; I would have thought the 11000ft + peaks in California will have had their own challenge for him but I suppose the weather has different characteristics.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 25th Sep 2012 at 15:43.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have thought the 11000ft + peaks in California will have had their own challenge for him but I suppose the weather has different characteristics.
Interesting, never really thought about that before, but perhaps I underestimated or was blissfully ignorant to the hazards of Southern California flying with the mountains etc. But it just seemed there that if a good flying day was forecast it STAYED a good flying day, I just get a gut instinct (rightly or wrongly) that flying in the Scottish highlands has more hazards and more surprises to throw at you. I remember many years ago on a driving visit to Oban with a California girl we decided to walk around the town but grabbed a quick drink in the pub while the rain cleared, we got half way thru our drink and the sun came out which prompted us to down the drinks and start walking, about 5 minutes into the walk it started pissing down so we returned to the pub, again half way thru the second drink the sun came out and not wanting to miss this opportunity we downed the second round and headed out, and yes you guessed it, it started pissing down again, I was living my own private version of Groundhog Day. And I think that is the issue, weather/conditions change quickly here in Scotland, perhaps its something to do with Scotland being a a small rocky outcropping on the tip of western Europe surrounded by 2 large bodies of water with there own weather systems. In california, I would think nothing of taking a 150hHP warrior and flying out off the Los Angeles basin and over the high deserts and mountain ranges to Vegas for the weekend or fly up to the ski resorts with fields in the 8000 ft level with surrounding mountains up to 12000ft, but when it comes to simple trips in Scotland like crossing to Oban I stress the hell out of myself, second guessing myself and capabilities in spite of the knowing the route and terrain very well from multiple holidays in the area when i was a kid. It is indeed a funny old thing !
it's not often I'd rather fly into a mountain than a cloud...
If you're on mogas, you can't get a safe height. Several cfit AAIB reports refer to survivor reports of downdrafts pulling the aircraft down.
I stay low and watch the weather. Cloud at my level on a hill is a divert signal.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are there many wrecks on those hills? There is in Wales, in the Peak District (much tamer than Scotland), and even on the Wrekin (the only hill for miles around).
Perhaps that is the clue for piperboy84 - take it slowly, gain the experience and end up like most of us up here - concious of the weather, the topography and the terminal effect of cumulus granite!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Both curl-over and the down of a wave bar can make climbing impossible.
The most severe wave I have experienced was this year south of Newcastle. I estimate in excess of 800fpm although as usual it did not last long.
D.O.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why so many military wrecks?
A Tornado into a hill in Argyll I think two years ago.
Hercules into a hill near Pitlochry maybe 5 years ago.
Two USAF F15s into Ben Macdui about 10 years ago.
Thats just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 26th Sep 2012 at 11:28.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is that military low flying going wrong, or the result of people flying in IMC without modern (or working) navigation (classic CFIT)?
It beggars belief how the RAF (or USAF) was going to fight a war with Russia, given the terrain to the east of here. Maybe they would agree with the enemy to fly in VMC only?
It beggars belief how the RAF (or USAF) was going to fight a war with Russia, given the terrain to the east of here. Maybe they would agree with the enemy to fly in VMC only?
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mostly gone wrong Peter,
All the accident reports are out now. As usual there are a collection of reasons which caused the accidents.
And our Mil boys are flying anything but modern Navigation equipment on the old work horses.
All the accident reports are out now. As usual there are a collection of reasons which caused the accidents.
And our Mil boys are flying anything but modern Navigation equipment on the old work horses.