Typical Running Costs?
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Typical Running Costs?
Hi,
Me again!
Whilst I realise that this is a bit of a 'length of string' question, can anyone please give me an idea of what the typical annual running costs of an EASA CoA aircraft (such as a Robin DR400) are?
I've owned a glider for a number of years so I'm realistic about the nature of these costs, but I've no experience of having a fan on the front to gauge how much these will increase by. For example:-
Insurance: Myself and possible syndicate members are low hour (< 20hrs) NPPL holders but have 500+ hrs in gliders. My glider insurance is currently circa £700 per year so for an aircraft with a value of circa £30K, would £1500 pa be a 'typical' estimate?
CoA / 50 hr Checks: I've heard figures of between £500 and £5000 mentioned, assuming nothing major breaks, any idea of the 'typical' costs please?
Hangarage: I've been told between £600 pa for a piece of grass and £1500 for a hangar space - is this 'typical'?
Anything else I've missed? Obviously there are consumables and a possible engine fund to consider, but I'm trying to establish a realistic idea of how much the minimum running costs would be if we flew for between 50 & 100 hrs per year in a smallish syndicate with something like a Robin or equivalent.
Thanks in anticipation as always.
Cheers,
FA
Me again!
Whilst I realise that this is a bit of a 'length of string' question, can anyone please give me an idea of what the typical annual running costs of an EASA CoA aircraft (such as a Robin DR400) are?
I've owned a glider for a number of years so I'm realistic about the nature of these costs, but I've no experience of having a fan on the front to gauge how much these will increase by. For example:-
Insurance: Myself and possible syndicate members are low hour (< 20hrs) NPPL holders but have 500+ hrs in gliders. My glider insurance is currently circa £700 per year so for an aircraft with a value of circa £30K, would £1500 pa be a 'typical' estimate?
CoA / 50 hr Checks: I've heard figures of between £500 and £5000 mentioned, assuming nothing major breaks, any idea of the 'typical' costs please?
Hangarage: I've been told between £600 pa for a piece of grass and £1500 for a hangar space - is this 'typical'?
Anything else I've missed? Obviously there are consumables and a possible engine fund to consider, but I'm trying to establish a realistic idea of how much the minimum running costs would be if we flew for between 50 & 100 hrs per year in a smallish syndicate with something like a Robin or equivalent.
Thanks in anticipation as always.
Cheers,
FA
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I,ve run a DR400/180 past five years in the south east sole ownership.Budget on £20k pa. for 100 hours flying.
£7k pa maintenance
£3k pa hangarage/base landings
£1.3k pa insurance based on 50k hull value no claims record 19000hrs total pilot time.
Fuel 35l per hour=3500lts= approx.£7k pa.
Any less than 100 hrs pa. I don,t think sole ownership would be viable.I,ve been very happy with my maintenance supplier they are not the cheapest but they do know what they are doing.
Best regards Stampe
£7k pa maintenance
£3k pa hangarage/base landings
£1.3k pa insurance based on 50k hull value no claims record 19000hrs total pilot time.
Fuel 35l per hour=3500lts= approx.£7k pa.
Any less than 100 hrs pa. I don,t think sole ownership would be viable.I,ve been very happy with my maintenance supplier they are not the cheapest but they do know what they are doing.
Best regards Stampe
Last edited by Stampe; 24th Sep 2012 at 11:59.
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Stampe is almost Identical to my estimate but I may have gone for £5000 on the maintenance (based on DR400/160 experience from a few years ago).
Rod1
Rod1
Last edited by Rod1; 24th Sep 2012 at 12:11.
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These figures are going to vary substantially according to how old/new the plane is, and how much you get involved in who does what on it, whether you do your own 50hr checks, etc.
Also hangarage varies a lot according to the part of the UK. In the SE it can be £7k/year easily.
I pay ~£2.5k for insurance on a 2002 TB20, CPL/IR with 1500hrs. Annual £2.7k, do my own servicing in between.
That depends very much on how much you value sole ownership 
The benefits are massive. To people who "go places" and can afford it, it is priceless. Those who can't afford it obviously can't do it!
If you fly much below say 50hrs/year then you may have issues with engine corrosion, unless you take care to fly very regularly.
Also hangarage varies a lot according to the part of the UK. In the SE it can be £7k/year easily.
I pay ~£2.5k for insurance on a 2002 TB20, CPL/IR with 1500hrs. Annual £2.7k, do my own servicing in between.
Any less than 100 hrs pa. I don,t think sole ownership would be viable
The benefits are massive. To people who "go places" and can afford it, it is priceless. Those who can't afford it obviously can't do it!If you fly much below say 50hrs/year then you may have issues with engine corrosion, unless you take care to fly very regularly.
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Silvaire is accurate but he lives in a land of freedom and low land costs
You can get a hangar in the UK for a hundred quid a year, but nobody would want to live where it would be
A lot of things are tied to each other. If you can get a hangar in which "owner maintenance" is permitted then you can dramatically reduce your maintenance costs (if N-reg) by employing a freelance A&P/IA. You can get a £3k Annual done for £1k.
That, of course, is why almost no hangar owner in the UK, located at an airfield where there is a MO present, permits stuff to be done in their hangar
I am currently watching the MSLP charts to see when I can get my next service done. 2 pairs of underpants, 2 sweaters, a wooly hat and gloves One of the more depressing aspects of ownership and trying to do the very best possible job.
You can get a hangar in the UK for a hundred quid a year, but nobody would want to live where it would be
A lot of things are tied to each other. If you can get a hangar in which "owner maintenance" is permitted then you can dramatically reduce your maintenance costs (if N-reg) by employing a freelance A&P/IA. You can get a £3k Annual done for £1k.
That, of course, is why almost no hangar owner in the UK, located at an airfield where there is a MO present, permits stuff to be done in their hangar
I am currently watching the MSLP charts to see when I can get my next service done. 2 pairs of underpants, 2 sweaters, a wooly hat and gloves
One of the more depressing aspects of ownership and trying to do the very best possible job.
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For my permit aircraft I pay £850 pa insurance (inc hull cover), £1150 pa for hangarage and £500pa on maintainence and inspections. So my fixed annual overheads are £2500. I then pay £30ph for fuel. I don't have an engine fund as I have a spare engine which I am slowly rebuilding.
At the moment I fly 70 hous pa which works out at £65 per hour. An upcoming change in work commitments will mean I'll easy be able to fly 100hours pa, reducing my costs to £55 per hour and if I can manage 150 hours p.a (I will be hours building for a CPL) it will cost me £47 per hour!
My aircraft is a Jodel 150a Mascaret, 2 seater.
Buy the right aircraft and you shouldn't lose any money on the capital when it comes to resell. It is a buyers market, grab yourself a bargain and sit on it until someone is willing to pay you good money to part with it and use the profits subsidise your flying.
The best thing about single ownership is availability, being able to turn up at the airfield and going flying whenever there is the slightest gap in the weather and being able to take the aircraft away touring for as long as you want!
At the moment I fly 70 hous pa which works out at £65 per hour. An upcoming change in work commitments will mean I'll easy be able to fly 100hours pa, reducing my costs to £55 per hour and if I can manage 150 hours p.a (I will be hours building for a CPL) it will cost me £47 per hour!
My aircraft is a Jodel 150a Mascaret, 2 seater.
Buy the right aircraft and you shouldn't lose any money on the capital when it comes to resell. It is a buyers market, grab yourself a bargain and sit on it until someone is willing to pay you good money to part with it and use the profits subsidise your flying.
The best thing about single ownership is availability, being able to turn up at the airfield and going flying whenever there is the slightest gap in the weather and being able to take the aircraft away touring for as long as you want!
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Wow id love to be in the postion to pay even half those costs.... In fact i dont even earn £20k let alone have it spare to spend on my own plane! 
We can dream..... At least i made it halfway and rent
Good luck to those of you who can afford it you are obviously hard working and deserving... Or lottery winners lol
We can dream..... At least i made it halfway and rent
Good luck to those of you who can afford it you are obviously hard working and deserving... Or lottery winners lol
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Thanks all for your replies thus far, very helpful and enlightening, and Pilot Lyon, whilst I do earn more than the threshold you mention, the share v rent dilemma is what its all about for me!
I must admit, compared to the gliding world, I am surprised at the running costs before you even get to fly. Actually buying the aircraft is one of the lowest cost items it seems. I need to find somewhere with nice aircraft (other than PA28s) that I can hire cheaply I think!
Cheers,
'FA'
I must admit, compared to the gliding world, I am surprised at the running costs before you even get to fly. Actually buying the aircraft is one of the lowest cost items it seems. I need to find somewhere with nice aircraft (other than PA28s) that I can hire cheaply I think!
Cheers,
'FA'
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By far the cheapest way is to buy a LAA aircraft, then you can save huge amounts by doing the maintenance yourself, if you are mechanically minded. The absolute cheapest would be a Jodel D9 or Taylor Mono or such like and just 2-3 gallons per hour. Low insurance as no passenger and aircraft low at only £6-8,000. Proper aeroplane with 70-80kts cruise and better than a microlight, as an of those two will never depreciate in value.
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Unless you want the IFR capability find a Permit aircraft, a friendly engineer and a small grass strip.
I have a motor glider which is an EASA aircraft...sigh. Insurance is £1200 and I do OK with hangarage as the wings fold. The positive is I can fly at 100kts at less than 15 ltrs/hr and if it's thermic I can fly for "free".
Maintenance is the biggest headache. I can do my own 50 hrs (which is usually a 6 monthly) but need Part M shop for the annual. This year the ARC was £3000, last year it was £6000! The prop needs servicing next year.....
Rateone
I have a motor glider which is an EASA aircraft...sigh. Insurance is £1200 and I do OK with hangarage as the wings fold. The positive is I can fly at 100kts at less than 15 ltrs/hr and if it's thermic I can fly for "free".
Maintenance is the biggest headache. I can do my own 50 hrs (which is usually a 6 monthly) but need Part M shop for the annual. This year the ARC was £3000, last year it was £6000! The prop needs servicing next year.....
Rateone
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Unless you want the IFR capability find a Permit aircraft, a friendly engineer and a small grass strip.
The Permit fleet divides into older types and home-builds (generally affordable, but limited) and the newer generation (big money and better performance). The majority are still 2-seaters.
Apart from the hassle factor of EASA Part M, I am generally happy to stay on CofA. I note that Permit owners are not immune from the hassle factor themselves, so you make the choice that suits you
Last edited by robin; 25th Sep 2012 at 10:13.
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100% right.
If you fail to fulfill all or most of the mission profile, you will be for ever miserable
And money is nothing to do with that. I know of pilots who went all the way up the food chain, to a turboprop, and then suddenly chucked it all in for good because they got fed up with the hassle of the ownership relative to what they were getting out of it.
If you fail to fulfill all or most of the mission profile, you will be for ever miserable
And money is nothing to do with that. I know of pilots who went all the way up the food chain, to a turboprop, and then suddenly chucked it all in for good because they got fed up with the hassle of the ownership relative to what they were getting out of it.
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Typical Running Costs?
Maybe buy a small share ie 1/4 and then you will have a much larger budget to fly with and the costs of repair/upkeep would be split leaving more to fly with
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“If you fail to fulfill all or most of the mission profile, you will be for ever miserable”
True to a point but it is possible to fulfil the mission profile with a split plan. When I upgraded to the MCR it was a better fit for my long distance VFR touring than the AA5b except for taking the family flying. My original plan was to use some of the £10,000 a year I was saving on running costs to hire a local DR400. In the event the family preferred to fly one at a time in the MCR and get involved in the flight and they fly more now than they did when I had the 4 seater. The result; in 7 years I have never hired a 4 seater and now probably never will.
Rod1
True to a point but it is possible to fulfil the mission profile with a split plan. When I upgraded to the MCR it was a better fit for my long distance VFR touring than the AA5b except for taking the family flying. My original plan was to use some of the £10,000 a year I was saving on running costs to hire a local DR400. In the event the family preferred to fly one at a time in the MCR and get involved in the flight and they fly more now than they did when I had the 4 seater. The result; in 7 years I have never hired a 4 seater and now probably never will.
Rod1
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The old saying if it flies floats or F--ks rent dont buy holds true unless you hit the magic 300 hrs pa?
20K for 100 hrs is still £200 per hour.
If its yours its yours which as stated can bring incalculable benefits but do add incalculable down sides too as well as huge costs if things go badly wrong as happened in my group of 4 when one of the four decided to crash it not once but twice. We got a fraction of the cost back on sale with the accident history and loads of down time due accidents.
Unless you are a high user renting will usually be cheaper and at the end of the day you walk away!
But still dream of a field a small hangar and a Husky waiting to be fired up after breakfast on a pink summer morning
Better option get someone to pay you to fly their dream machine.
Pace
20K for 100 hrs is still £200 per hour.
If its yours its yours which as stated can bring incalculable benefits but do add incalculable down sides too as well as huge costs if things go badly wrong as happened in my group of 4 when one of the four decided to crash it not once but twice. We got a fraction of the cost back on sale with the accident history and loads of down time due accidents.
Unless you are a high user renting will usually be cheaper and at the end of the day you walk away!
But still dream of a field a small hangar and a Husky waiting to be fired up after breakfast on a pink summer morning
Better option get someone to pay you to fly their dream machine.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th Sep 2012 at 09:19.
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It will nearly always be cheaper to get an airline flight
So any "costs" debate will always be intractable.
If you can easily afford sole ownership, go for it (unless you will be flying too little for the engine).
If you cannot afford sole ownership, then you can't do it
In between the two, you get different positions where people try to argue that £200/hr or whatever is too much and renting would be cheaper, etc. But you cannot go away anywhere and rent. Look at the trips I do... I could not do most of them if renting, due to the time span. These long trips represent only a fraction of my TT but they give me a huge benefit; without them I would just be messing around in the UK and most of those flights can be driven in less time.
It is important to be able to easily afford one's flying. If the affordability is marginal then you can be subject to family pressures bordering on resentment (depending on how good your relationship etc is).
Anyway, I gather than the SR22 "hour block purchase, zero equity" setups charge about £250/hr, which is a lot. Unsuprising, because they let just about anybody with a PPL to fly it, and they are set up to make a profit for the operator.
So any "costs" debate will always be intractable.
If you can easily afford sole ownership, go for it (unless you will be flying too little for the engine).
If you cannot afford sole ownership, then you can't do it
In between the two, you get different positions where people try to argue that £200/hr or whatever is too much and renting would be cheaper, etc. But you cannot go away anywhere and rent. Look at the trips I do... I could not do most of them if renting, due to the time span. These long trips represent only a fraction of my TT but they give me a huge benefit; without them I would just be messing around in the UK and most of those flights can be driven in less time.
It is important to be able to easily afford one's flying. If the affordability is marginal then you can be subject to family pressures bordering on resentment (depending on how good your relationship etc is).
Anyway, I gather than the SR22 "hour block purchase, zero equity" setups charge about £250/hr, which is a lot. Unsuprising, because they let just about anybody with a PPL to fly it, and they are set up to make a profit for the operator.
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Peter
If you are looking at the TBM700 in the future also look at the Eclipse! After its chequered start up history and problems it is turning into a good machine which will get you over the weather and will equal the TBM on running costs with two engined safety.
Under Sikorski 3 to 5 years down the line second hand it should be a strong competitor to the TBM.
The Eclipse Jet | The Most Efficient Light Jet on the Planet | The Eclipse 550 Twin-Engine Jet
http://www.eclipse.aero/images/gallery/te_3.jpg
If it looks right it flies right
Pace
If you are looking at the TBM700 in the future also look at the Eclipse! After its chequered start up history and problems it is turning into a good machine which will get you over the weather and will equal the TBM on running costs with two engined safety.
Under Sikorski 3 to 5 years down the line second hand it should be a strong competitor to the TBM.
The Eclipse Jet | The Most Efficient Light Jet on the Planet | The Eclipse 550 Twin-Engine Jet
http://www.eclipse.aero/images/gallery/te_3.jpg
If it looks right it flies right
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th Sep 2012 at 11:07.
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Unfortunately a (used) TBM is a little too pricey for me, especially in terms of ongoing costs (everything rockets; hangarage goes from £6k to £20k and that is just the start) but also it would serve about 1/3 of my mission profile (extremely well, admittedly) so like other owners I would have to keep the TB20.
The Eclipse looks very nice; I agree.
But really I am staying put. So easy to get into a "bridge too far" position in this game.
We've just had a super 2 weeks in Croatia and Greece with the TB20. Shoreham to Brac nonstop, landing with 22 USG. Brac to Samos and burning just half the tanks. Samos to Zagreb, with a landing at Alexandropolis (ferry to Samothraki) and landing with 20 USG. Zagreb to Shoreham against 30-40kt headwinds, FL160 across the Alps, landing with 19.1 USG. It's pretty good really!
The Eclipse looks very nice; I agree.
But really I am staying put. So easy to get into a "bridge too far" position in this game.
We've just had a super 2 weeks in Croatia and Greece with the TB20. Shoreham to Brac nonstop, landing with 22 USG. Brac to Samos and burning just half the tanks. Samos to Zagreb, with a landing at Alexandropolis (ferry to Samothraki) and landing with 20 USG. Zagreb to Shoreham against 30-40kt headwinds, FL160 across the Alps, landing with 19.1 USG. It's pretty good really!
Last edited by peterh337; 26th Sep 2012 at 10:47.