Practical IMC flying
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Practical IMC flying
Holding an IMCr now I've never exercised the privileges. I was wondering:
1. A basic service won't be enough anymore, do people ask for a traffic service
2. What happens if destination has no IMC approach? It's a bust?
I was going to fly IMC to Goodwood festival of speed but didn't feel confident enough. Cloud base at 1300 feet but no IMC approach so didn't want to pop out that low.
Whilst I'd feel confident for the 15 mins of instrument flight & navigation it's the other two pieces I worried about.
1. A basic service won't be enough anymore, do people ask for a traffic service
2. What happens if destination has no IMC approach? It's a bust?
I was going to fly IMC to Goodwood festival of speed but didn't feel confident enough. Cloud base at 1300 feet but no IMC approach so didn't want to pop out that low.
Whilst I'd feel confident for the 15 mins of instrument flight & navigation it's the other two pieces I worried about.
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If there's any doubt, there is NO doubt !
You need to get with an IMC instructor and go fly in IMC and refresh / develop your skills and experience on an actual route in poor weather.
The punishment is severe for any lack of knowledge or skill
You need to get with an IMC instructor and go fly in IMC and refresh / develop your skills and experience on an actual route in poor weather.
The punishment is severe for any lack of knowledge or skill
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The best solution is to go flying with another pilot in IMC and see what they do.
There is a flow for an instrument flight and you need to get your head round it.
Most of the work is done in the planning with alot more escape plans. If I can't do this then I will do that.....
As for the basic service yes you can ask for a traffic, if you get it is another matter, again its a matter of planning what to do if you don't get it.
The first flight in clouds on your tod is a bit of an eye opener, in some ways more stressful than going first solo.
There is a flow for an instrument flight and you need to get your head round it.
Most of the work is done in the planning with alot more escape plans. If I can't do this then I will do that.....
As for the basic service yes you can ask for a traffic, if you get it is another matter, again its a matter of planning what to do if you don't get it.
The first flight in clouds on your tod is a bit of an eye opener, in some ways more stressful than going first solo.
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I think it is fair to say the risk of collision in imc under a basic service is miniscule. Indeed its so small statistically it shoulnt prevent anyone flying in imc under a basic service. Inevitably accept a traffic service if its available.
Obviously there are three segements to an imc flight. The departure, en route and arrival. The only way you get comfortable departing into imc is doing it. Start with a high base - say 2,000 feet and climb directly into imc. With experience you will be comfortable with lower bases but to start with a rapid transition from take off into imc can be unnerving.
En route the aim isnt to bounce around in the clouds but to find vmc on top. That doesnt always work or is not possible. Hand flying for any length is demanding and tiring; all you can do is gradually take on longer flights and establish your comfort zones. A reliable auto pilot is almost essential and makes the en route sector almost a non event.
Which leaves the arrival, which all comes down to planning and contingencies. Be clear where you are going to get your information from about the actual weather. In the case of goodwood they have no trained observers but you will get a reasonable estimate. Shoreham and southampton are both close and will provide a much more accurate estimate. Having established the actual base you can now decide whether a descent into vmc is possible with the parameters you should have set before leaving. Plenty has been written about made up approaches and should be read. Be completely familiar with the surrounding terrain and whether you can safely make a cruise descent to establish visual. In reality 1300 is not very low at goodwood and a cruise descent from the beacon due south gives masses of terrain seperation. However be clear at what height you will abort and dont be tempted to accept any less. If you have done your homework there are a host of get out of jail cards for the example you give. Firstly the sea is just to your south, more than good enough for a cruise descent with gps combined with a radial and dme of gwc if you prefer, if that doesnt work shoreham would have given you a cloud break on their 02 ndb/dme or gps procedures and if that doesnt work the ils at southampton will be your ultimate saviour. Once visual its back to your planning. You should know whether you can safely reposition to goodwood below the deck. Again be clear on your minimas and if you are not happy climb back into imc and land at shoreham or southampton.
It is all in the planning, and being confident as you accept lower forecast bases that short of their being an ils where you are going if push comes to shove there is an ils nearby and you are really comfortable and confident you can fly the ils to the required minima.
Finally gain experience flying in poor viz. for anything without a procedure an approach in poor viz can be daunting and its well worth knowing your comfort levels. Are you better off with a tight visual circuit to land or a much longer stabilised visual approach and if the later have you got the kit to set up the approach in the cockpit. These are not so much made up procedures but more a case of a visual approach in conditions that arent ideal.
Obviously there are three segements to an imc flight. The departure, en route and arrival. The only way you get comfortable departing into imc is doing it. Start with a high base - say 2,000 feet and climb directly into imc. With experience you will be comfortable with lower bases but to start with a rapid transition from take off into imc can be unnerving.
En route the aim isnt to bounce around in the clouds but to find vmc on top. That doesnt always work or is not possible. Hand flying for any length is demanding and tiring; all you can do is gradually take on longer flights and establish your comfort zones. A reliable auto pilot is almost essential and makes the en route sector almost a non event.
Which leaves the arrival, which all comes down to planning and contingencies. Be clear where you are going to get your information from about the actual weather. In the case of goodwood they have no trained observers but you will get a reasonable estimate. Shoreham and southampton are both close and will provide a much more accurate estimate. Having established the actual base you can now decide whether a descent into vmc is possible with the parameters you should have set before leaving. Plenty has been written about made up approaches and should be read. Be completely familiar with the surrounding terrain and whether you can safely make a cruise descent to establish visual. In reality 1300 is not very low at goodwood and a cruise descent from the beacon due south gives masses of terrain seperation. However be clear at what height you will abort and dont be tempted to accept any less. If you have done your homework there are a host of get out of jail cards for the example you give. Firstly the sea is just to your south, more than good enough for a cruise descent with gps combined with a radial and dme of gwc if you prefer, if that doesnt work shoreham would have given you a cloud break on their 02 ndb/dme or gps procedures and if that doesnt work the ils at southampton will be your ultimate saviour. Once visual its back to your planning. You should know whether you can safely reposition to goodwood below the deck. Again be clear on your minimas and if you are not happy climb back into imc and land at shoreham or southampton.
It is all in the planning, and being confident as you accept lower forecast bases that short of their being an ils where you are going if push comes to shove there is an ils nearby and you are really comfortable and confident you can fly the ils to the required minima.
Finally gain experience flying in poor viz. for anything without a procedure an approach in poor viz can be daunting and its well worth knowing your comfort levels. Are you better off with a tight visual circuit to land or a much longer stabilised visual approach and if the later have you got the kit to set up the approach in the cockpit. These are not so much made up procedures but more a case of a visual approach in conditions that arent ideal.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 24th Sep 2012 at 07:59.
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I was going to fly IMC to Goodwood festival of speed but didn't feel confident enough. Cloud base at 1300 feet but no IMC approach so didn't want to pop out that low.
Don't know if it's still on sale, but the Oxford interactive IMC CD ROM is quite a good way to learn the practicalities of the type of flying you might think to do on an IMC, mainly IFR OCAS and a bit of Class D.
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PP
What is an IMC approach ? Heard of an instrument approach but not an IMC approach! I suppose you would be on an IMC approach if you were flying an instrument approach which happened to take you through cloud.
PP take it steady as just because you have the rating does not mean you can set off and use it in anger.
Remember too that the IMCR was a get out of trouble rating and not a practical instrument rating as such.
many still use it as that although more experienced pilots will use it in anger.
you can get yourself into serious trouble unless you build up slowly with small steps.
Start by flying a trip on top of cloud where the departure and destination have high cloudbases and forecast to stay that way and preferably with plenty of gaps but just getting your rating and still being green is not the time to head off on an IMC trip with 1300 foot cloudbase at destination which might end up as 500 at destination or worse especially if your asking about IMC approaches
Terminology good sir 
Pace
Cloud base at 1300 feet but no IMC approach
PP take it steady as just because you have the rating does not mean you can set off and use it in anger.
Remember too that the IMCR was a get out of trouble rating and not a practical instrument rating as such.
many still use it as that although more experienced pilots will use it in anger.
you can get yourself into serious trouble unless you build up slowly with small steps.
Start by flying a trip on top of cloud where the departure and destination have high cloudbases and forecast to stay that way and preferably with plenty of gaps but just getting your rating and still being green is not the time to head off on an IMC trip with 1300 foot cloudbase at destination which might end up as 500 at destination or worse especially if your asking about IMC approaches
Terminology good sir Pace
Last edited by Pace; 24th Sep 2012 at 08:02.
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Thanks for the info
Thanks for the info folks.
Yes, writing on PPrune on my iPhone on the way in to work means all terminology NOT correct, facts for people pointing it out.
Especially thanks to Fuji for answering the questions posed.
Yes, writing on PPrune on my iPhone on the way in to work means all terminology NOT correct, facts for people pointing it out.
Especially thanks to Fuji for answering the questions posed.
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Paul,
With an IMC rating myself, these are the guidelines I follow myself for flights which are planned to be partially in IMC (mainly getting above cloud and back down through).
Cloud base forecast to be at or above the MSA, so that if the noisy thing under the cowling stops there is a chance to see somewhere to put down when you inevitably drop out of the clouds. Meteoblue is handy for finding out where the tops are so that you can have a nice smooth flight above the clouds and away from the scud runners
Obviously avoiding icing conditions, ideally between airports with ILS approaches, or if it is going to be a let down to recover VMC, somewhere there is plently of room and a good fix, without terrain or obstacles.
If you can buddy up with someone else who has an IMC rating, being able to share some cockpit workload is great will probably enhance the safetly levels as long as you are clear who is doing what.
Good thread to share some practical advice.
With an IMC rating myself, these are the guidelines I follow myself for flights which are planned to be partially in IMC (mainly getting above cloud and back down through).
Cloud base forecast to be at or above the MSA, so that if the noisy thing under the cowling stops there is a chance to see somewhere to put down when you inevitably drop out of the clouds. Meteoblue is handy for finding out where the tops are so that you can have a nice smooth flight above the clouds and away from the scud runners
Obviously avoiding icing conditions, ideally between airports with ILS approaches, or if it is going to be a let down to recover VMC, somewhere there is plently of room and a good fix, without terrain or obstacles.
If you can buddy up with someone else who has an IMC rating, being able to share some cockpit workload is great will probably enhance the safetly levels as long as you are clear who is doing what.
Good thread to share some practical advice.
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I would echo what others say about starting slowly. I have had my IMCr for six years now and do a bit of IMC flying but I wouldnt use it in anger. There are limitations in services and options that are made available to those with a full IR. Dont rush to fly at minimums (personal, or legal).
As others have said, its all in the planning. Next time you do a route, make it compatible with both a VMC flight and an IMC flight. I.e. plan a route based on VOR's, NDB's, Waypoints you can put into a GPS etc.... That way if your flying along in VMC but want to be go for it and head up into the clouds, then your prepared and ready. If you decide to stay VMC, fine, you still have a good route and can practise some VOR tracking or something. This method also suits me, because my decision to fly in IMC might be based on whether I can get a traffic Service once in the air. Where I am base, Farnborough Radar is an excellent service, with massive coverage in the South East of England, but there are no guarantees to get a radar service.
Additionally I carry Pooleys plates for all airfields en-route. I carry plates for any instrument approaches at airfields that I might use at the end of my route. I also note on a basic PLOG what heights CAS begins at, and also who might be able to give me a radar service should I need it in a hurry. As mentioned before, its all down to planning.
PiperArcher
As others have said, its all in the planning. Next time you do a route, make it compatible with both a VMC flight and an IMC flight. I.e. plan a route based on VOR's, NDB's, Waypoints you can put into a GPS etc.... That way if your flying along in VMC but want to be go for it and head up into the clouds, then your prepared and ready. If you decide to stay VMC, fine, you still have a good route and can practise some VOR tracking or something. This method also suits me, because my decision to fly in IMC might be based on whether I can get a traffic Service once in the air. Where I am base, Farnborough Radar is an excellent service, with massive coverage in the South East of England, but there are no guarantees to get a radar service.
Additionally I carry Pooleys plates for all airfields en-route. I carry plates for any instrument approaches at airfields that I might use at the end of my route. I also note on a basic PLOG what heights CAS begins at, and also who might be able to give me a radar service should I need it in a hurry. As mentioned before, its all down to planning.
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PP, lots of excellent points and advice here, plenty to think about.
I too have had mine for about 6 years, and on reflection reading this thread, have actually used it quite a bit. however, I also take regular flights with an instructor, and fly instruments.
When I first got the rating I was like you, let's go somewhere and use these skills, but the actual is not quite like that. I did not know how to fly a proper SiD, or how to file an IFR flight plan. The rating is a bit like getting the PPL, you can fly, but you also require a lot of real experience.
Go with a similar rated friend, you learn a lot, and ease the workload. Get up at least every three months with an instructor, and fly some procedures, for real.
I liked the point of on a reasonable day, go up VMC on top, come through gaps, it will prepare you for the feel of flying above and into cloud. I found this a confidence builder. Get up at night, again, makes you comfortable with instruments. It's all a learning curve!
I too have had mine for about 6 years, and on reflection reading this thread, have actually used it quite a bit. however, I also take regular flights with an instructor, and fly instruments.
When I first got the rating I was like you, let's go somewhere and use these skills, but the actual is not quite like that. I did not know how to fly a proper SiD, or how to file an IFR flight plan. The rating is a bit like getting the PPL, you can fly, but you also require a lot of real experience.
Go with a similar rated friend, you learn a lot, and ease the workload. Get up at least every three months with an instructor, and fly some procedures, for real.
I liked the point of on a reasonable day, go up VMC on top, come through gaps, it will prepare you for the feel of flying above and into cloud. I found this a confidence builder. Get up at night, again, makes you comfortable with instruments. It's all a learning curve!
Last edited by maxred; 24th Sep 2012 at 11:43.
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Many do the IMCR to expand the use ability of their aircraft!
But do remember it is not an IR!
Can it be used like an IR YES OCAS but the guys I know who do use it that way are capable and experienced.
Often IMCR OCAS is more demanding than an IR because you are on your own often with no radar. With said rating we also get into the realms of the home made approaches and again I know a few who do that but you really do need to be experienced, comfortable on instruments and situationally aware with a lot of spare mental capacity.
As one post said getting the IMCR is like being a green PPL and it's a start to learning not a launch ticket!
Pace
But do remember it is not an IR!
Can it be used like an IR YES OCAS but the guys I know who do use it that way are capable and experienced.
Often IMCR OCAS is more demanding than an IR because you are on your own often with no radar. With said rating we also get into the realms of the home made approaches and again I know a few who do that but you really do need to be experienced, comfortable on instruments and situationally aware with a lot of spare mental capacity.
As one post said getting the IMCR is like being a green PPL and it's a start to learning not a launch ticket!
Pace
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This is one of those threads where one could write reams, but at the same time reams already have been written 
A properly taught IMCR is almost identical to an IR (FAA or JAA, both of which I have).
A properly taught IMCR is almost identical to an IR (FAA or JAA, both of which I have).
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When I passed my IMCR in 1991. I had learned mostly in my own aircraft and started using it immediately. If the cloud is 1000ft AAL then dropping down and doing a visual join / land is not too hard. If you work at it you will soon be climbing into cloud at 1000ft, hand flying for two hours and then doing an approach at the far end. This is not actually that hard provided nothing goes wrong.
For the first few years I pushed the IMCR to its legal limit – and this was pre GPS. What did I learn? That I was a very lucky chap! Best part of 20 years and over 1000 hours later I would advise you use the rating as a get out of jail free card. Keep practising; keep current and assuming you fly single engine keep out of cloud unless the base is above your limit to stand a chance of a successful forced landing. If you go for 1000 ft then in many aircraft you are looking at 30sec max to pick a field, set it up and get it down!
Rod1
For the first few years I pushed the IMCR to its legal limit – and this was pre GPS. What did I learn? That I was a very lucky chap! Best part of 20 years and over 1000 hours later I would advise you use the rating as a get out of jail free card. Keep practising; keep current and assuming you fly single engine keep out of cloud unless the base is above your limit to stand a chance of a successful forced landing. If you go for 1000 ft then in many aircraft you are looking at 30sec max to pick a field, set it up and get it down!
Rod1
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Get a PC Flight Sim with a joy stick and practice. When you can fly a simulator down to 200ft on an ILS approach, a real aeroplane will be a breeze.
IFR flying is all about instrument scan and procedure. The instrument scan tells you where the aeroplane is and what it's doing, the procedure tells you where it ought to be what it ought to be doing and the trick is to keep the two in step. This requires planning ahead, so if you are instrument flying and have nothing to do, then you've missed something!
I had an IMCR for some years and used it in anger on a regular basis including approaches to minima, I now have an IR and from a practical point of view there's very little difference, despite what some folk will tell you. In both cases currency and practice are the important thing as the skills go rusty quite quickly if not regularly polished.
IFR flying is all about instrument scan and procedure. The instrument scan tells you where the aeroplane is and what it's doing, the procedure tells you where it ought to be what it ought to be doing and the trick is to keep the two in step. This requires planning ahead, so if you are instrument flying and have nothing to do, then you've missed something!
I had an IMCR for some years and used it in anger on a regular basis including approaches to minima, I now have an IR and from a practical point of view there's very little difference, despite what some folk will tell you. In both cases currency and practice are the important thing as the skills go rusty quite quickly if not regularly polished.
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I do what piperarcher said, I.e. plan all flights for radio nav so I can do them imc if required. I think to avoid IMC whenever there is cloud below MSA is a bit restrictive, though I do set myself a minimum of 1000ft (which allows for cloud base to be lower than forecast as a get out of jail free card).
Basically it is, as several have said, a case of always knowing what your out is.
Tim
Basically it is, as several have said, a case of always knowing what your out is.
Tim
