Uk to Spain vfr
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... and spend some time reading Peter's trip reports, they are a mine of knowledge. Suggest getting a full subscription to Meteoblue for weather too (you can just do it for a month if required). If you are getting a 2000/3000/4000ft cloud base at LESO/LEBB it doesn't mean you are going to get across the mountains VFR. Depending on the time of year you are looking to go they can collect a lot of cloud... If you are used to flying relatively short trips in the UK the weather planning is a little different to when crossing half a continent.
With two of us with IMC ratings we got out of the the UK on a Y plan and were then above a solid cloud base all the way to Rennes, which cleared to CAVOK as forecast to arrive at Nantes. We then got a lucky break and the following day was CAVOK allowing us to get down to LESO and then continue into Portugal where it got a bit convective, but pretty much exactly has we had expected, so we managed to slip in to our planned fuel stop about 30 mins ahead of a cell, waited a couple of hours for things to clear and routed on to Evora which was the final destination.
The return was a totally different kettle of fish and we waited a long time before we were able to depart VFR in Spain and have cloud tops over the mountains low enough for us to be VMC on top over. This cloud was all sitting along the mountains in the North of Spain and there were many days where it went up too high for us to get over not having the sort of equipment Peter does. Once a couple of miles out over water, all was CAVOK again!
Meteoblue was VERY useful for predicting the tops, which you don't get from a TAF/METAR or low level forecast. Getting a login for the the French weather site is quick and painless, but despite applying a month or so in advance I didn't get access to the Spanish or Portugese ones until after we got back.
Go enjoy, just spend some time on the planning. Maybe we did too much, but we did at least have a very enjoyable trip with very few surprises that weren't weather related.
With two of us with IMC ratings we got out of the the UK on a Y plan and were then above a solid cloud base all the way to Rennes, which cleared to CAVOK as forecast to arrive at Nantes. We then got a lucky break and the following day was CAVOK allowing us to get down to LESO and then continue into Portugal where it got a bit convective, but pretty much exactly has we had expected, so we managed to slip in to our planned fuel stop about 30 mins ahead of a cell, waited a couple of hours for things to clear and routed on to Evora which was the final destination.
The return was a totally different kettle of fish and we waited a long time before we were able to depart VFR in Spain and have cloud tops over the mountains low enough for us to be VMC on top over. This cloud was all sitting along the mountains in the North of Spain and there were many days where it went up too high for us to get over not having the sort of equipment Peter does. Once a couple of miles out over water, all was CAVOK again!
Meteoblue was VERY useful for predicting the tops, which you don't get from a TAF/METAR or low level forecast. Getting a login for the the French weather site is quick and painless, but despite applying a month or so in advance I didn't get access to the Spanish or Portugese ones until after we got back.
Go enjoy, just spend some time on the planning. Maybe we did too much, but we did at least have a very enjoyable trip with very few surprises that weren't weather related.
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Backpacker, it must have taken some of your very valuable time to compose your post anyway! Anybody ever tell you if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing! If you can't be bothered to give a constructive reply, move on!
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They are both people that suffer small penis syndrome in my book but i do take on board airpolice's comment about my English. Didn't realise that he was also reading threads and judging people's spelling but if it makes him happy then who am i to judge.
I assume with his user name he is trying to live the dream but then again by looking at his useless comments it should have been actionman or something like that but i will leave you all to comment on the question in hand and help the o.p for fill his task.
I assume with his user name he is trying to live the dream but then again by looking at his useless comments it should have been actionman or something like that but i will leave you all to comment on the question in hand and help the o.p for fill his task.
Last edited by davrus; 19th Sep 2012 at 20:42.
Pilotage is correct, 5 off 3 axis aircraft and 2 flexwings in the UK team flew to Marugan, 60 miles NNW of Madrid, for the World Microlight Championships. The 5 off 3 axis aircraft flew in a loose formation, the 2 flexwings flew solo and took different routes.
The formation of 3 axis types all met up at Headcorn after work on a Friday afternoon and crossed to Abbeville for the first night stop over. Cheap-ish Motel, restaurant on site, cheap landing fees, free overnight parking, fuel except Mondays, customs with 24 hour notice.
On the second day routed by Dreux (Mogas had been arranged in advance), Wannafly (UK run microlight school near to Poitiers) (Mogas and buffet lunch arranged in advance) and Montpezat (French Microlight centre with fuel and restaurant on site) where we overnighted (camping).
On the third day the intention was to route via Oloron (in France) and then to St Cilia de Jaca (Spain) via a lowish route through the Pyrenees but on the day Oloron was cut off by thunderstorms and St C de J was closed for a model aircraft world championship event. The final route went directly from Montpezat and went over the Pyrenees at between 11 and 12 thousand feet amsl. The highest peak close to the route was over 10 k. The turbulence was OK but the viz could have been better at times. Check your weather AND take local advice before heading over.
Some of these places are microlight only so won't be available to GA traffic but equally the number of microlight friendly airfields in the south of France is a bit thin on the ground.....
In Spain it gets worse. We visited Lumbier (microlight only) but they were closed/deserted, odd on a Sunday lunchtime, no fuel. Sanguesa has a disused but very impressive control tower but otherwise is in terminal decline, there is a petrol station within walking distance. In practice, when you land in the thistle field which passes as an airfield the traffic stops to take photos and they are happy to run you to the petrol station.
Do not go to Garray. The clown that runs the airfield has selective understanding of English (any queries or complaints will be met with "no understandee" gestures and much shouting) but is quite happy to overcharge and rip you off. When we arrived there it was clear that the weather was deteriorating rapidly and it looked as though we might have to stop overnight. He demanded 10 Euro for landing. The sign in the office said landing fees were 3 E, when we pointed this out he tore the sign down and threw it in a rubbish bin. Then he wanted 20 E for overnight parking, told us we were not allowed to camp but he could run us into the town for 30 E per car load (there were 9 in the party). There was Mogas in a bowser but it ran out after only two aircraft had been filled and he said no more fuel until the next day. Eventually he was persuaded to sell us some Avgas at an inflated price. As it happened the torrential rain and thunder storms passed through leaving just enough time for us to fly to Marugan before sunset. We divided the fuel we had to enable everyone to make the last two hour leg and then took off before we could be stopped.
While at Marugan my aircraft was damaged when a tornado caused a marquee to fly across the aircraft park so I can't report on the return trip but I do know that 4 off 3 axis and two flexwings flew back to the UK.
I was a bit disappointed with the level of detail on the Spanish paper charts but most impressed with my Aware unit. I only have the UK charts in the Aware but that did not stop it reporting all of the airspace in France and Spain for the route we took. GA and microlights are way, way down the pecking order in Spain and the charts are not really suitable for our level of activity. My permission to fly in Spain states that the maximum height above the ground I am allowed to fly is just 300M (1000 ft!) which is difficult when you see some of the terrain.
Rans6....
The formation of 3 axis types all met up at Headcorn after work on a Friday afternoon and crossed to Abbeville for the first night stop over. Cheap-ish Motel, restaurant on site, cheap landing fees, free overnight parking, fuel except Mondays, customs with 24 hour notice.
On the second day routed by Dreux (Mogas had been arranged in advance), Wannafly (UK run microlight school near to Poitiers) (Mogas and buffet lunch arranged in advance) and Montpezat (French Microlight centre with fuel and restaurant on site) where we overnighted (camping).
On the third day the intention was to route via Oloron (in France) and then to St Cilia de Jaca (Spain) via a lowish route through the Pyrenees but on the day Oloron was cut off by thunderstorms and St C de J was closed for a model aircraft world championship event. The final route went directly from Montpezat and went over the Pyrenees at between 11 and 12 thousand feet amsl. The highest peak close to the route was over 10 k. The turbulence was OK but the viz could have been better at times. Check your weather AND take local advice before heading over.
Some of these places are microlight only so won't be available to GA traffic but equally the number of microlight friendly airfields in the south of France is a bit thin on the ground.....
In Spain it gets worse. We visited Lumbier (microlight only) but they were closed/deserted, odd on a Sunday lunchtime, no fuel. Sanguesa has a disused but very impressive control tower but otherwise is in terminal decline, there is a petrol station within walking distance. In practice, when you land in the thistle field which passes as an airfield the traffic stops to take photos and they are happy to run you to the petrol station.
Do not go to Garray. The clown that runs the airfield has selective understanding of English (any queries or complaints will be met with "no understandee" gestures and much shouting) but is quite happy to overcharge and rip you off. When we arrived there it was clear that the weather was deteriorating rapidly and it looked as though we might have to stop overnight. He demanded 10 Euro for landing. The sign in the office said landing fees were 3 E, when we pointed this out he tore the sign down and threw it in a rubbish bin. Then he wanted 20 E for overnight parking, told us we were not allowed to camp but he could run us into the town for 30 E per car load (there were 9 in the party). There was Mogas in a bowser but it ran out after only two aircraft had been filled and he said no more fuel until the next day. Eventually he was persuaded to sell us some Avgas at an inflated price. As it happened the torrential rain and thunder storms passed through leaving just enough time for us to fly to Marugan before sunset. We divided the fuel we had to enable everyone to make the last two hour leg and then took off before we could be stopped.
While at Marugan my aircraft was damaged when a tornado caused a marquee to fly across the aircraft park so I can't report on the return trip but I do know that 4 off 3 axis and two flexwings flew back to the UK.
I was a bit disappointed with the level of detail on the Spanish paper charts but most impressed with my Aware unit. I only have the UK charts in the Aware but that did not stop it reporting all of the airspace in France and Spain for the route we took. GA and microlights are way, way down the pecking order in Spain and the charts are not really suitable for our level of activity. My permission to fly in Spain states that the maximum height above the ground I am allowed to fly is just 300M (1000 ft!) which is difficult when you see some of the terrain.
Rans6....
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I think most people flying reasonably seriously VFR around Spain use the Jepp "VFR/GPS" charts.
They are not perfect but they give you a consistent presentation across most of Europe.
I would use them for their entire coverage area, except UK and France both of which have IMHO better alternatives (the 1:1M SIA ones for France, not the very pretty but silly IGN ones which only go to 5000ft)
They are not perfect but they give you a consistent presentation across most of Europe.
I would use them for their entire coverage area, except UK and France both of which have IMHO better alternatives (the 1:1M SIA ones for France, not the very pretty but silly IGN ones which only go to 5000ft)
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I guess people are entitled to there own opinion which I respect
But it wasn't such a dumb post surely
I've never flown a trip like this so I am just gathering as much information from people before I do the actual flight planning next year
But it wasn't such a dumb post surely
I've never flown a trip like this so I am just gathering as much information from people before I do the actual flight planning next year
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Aerofoil,
I hope that I didn't give the impression that my reference to a "dumb question" was about your question in particular, rather it was a general question to the two that responded rather unpolitely (IMHO).
In my book there's no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers.
I hope that I didn't give the impression that my reference to a "dumb question" was about your question in particular, rather it was a general question to the two that responded rather unpolitely (IMHO).
In my book there's no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers.
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aerofoil1,
A subscription to Efax.com was also very useful for PPR, checking fuel availability etc., especially in Spain where emails are often ignored or the addresses are not published in the AIP. This allows you to send/receive faxes using your smartphone/tablet. I think the first month is free.
A subscription to Efax.com was also very useful for PPR, checking fuel availability etc., especially in Spain where emails are often ignored or the addresses are not published in the AIP. This allows you to send/receive faxes using your smartphone/tablet. I think the first month is free.
I should have added ref charts: The Spanish charts have been "about to be up-issued" since the beginning of the year but have been slipping back month by month. As a consequence the usual outlets have not bought any more of the old issue charts for fear of being left with stock nobody wants so getting any charts was difficult. In the end, as departure was looming, I took the only ones I could find in the UK. I can't remember what they were and I gave them away before returning home.
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Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread some valuable information here which i will take on board thanks to all for taking the time and effort to share your thoughts!
One last question what sort of budget would be practical?
One last question what sort of budget would be practical?
Wow i am left gob smacked
Not posted on here for many years and after seeing the first few replys i dont think i will ever both.
I did however think this was a place to ask question and share experiences but obviously that does not seem the case.
Hats off to the posters that did help with the original question.
If i could answer ir give advise aerofoil1 then i would but unfortunatly havnt done the said flight but good luck and enjoy.
As for the misurable ones why comment if it is not of any use to the original question.
Sorry to rock the boat but this forum will soon be as bad as face book.
Rant over.
Not posted on here for many years and after seeing the first few replys i dont think i will ever both.
I did however think this was a place to ask question and share experiences but obviously that does not seem the case.
Hats off to the posters that did help with the original question.
If i could answer ir give advise aerofoil1 then i would but unfortunatly havnt done the said flight but good luck and enjoy.
As for the misurable ones why comment if it is not of any use to the original question.
Sorry to rock the boat but this forum will soon be as bad as face book.
Rant over.
Hope the door doesn't hit you too hard on the way out
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A subscription to Efax.com was also very useful for PPR, checking fuel availability etc., especially in Spain where emails are often ignored or the addresses are not published in the AIP. This allows you to send/receive faxes using your smartphone/tablet. I think the first month is free.
Spain.... airports there ritually ignore communications of any kind, especially in English
Also much ground staff cannot speak English even at the bigger international airports. Greece is actually much easier, despite having a more fraught aviation scene (silly opening hours etc) because they speak English well, so in most cases, if pressed for time, you can just phone them up.
this forum will soon be as bad as face book
FB will be next (I hope).
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For a stop-over instead of La Rochelle why not try Biscarrosse-Parentis. Fuel available, no landing fees and ATC Mon-Fri only with Sat and Sun freecall.
I have friends at the Airpark there who do excellent accommodation, either B&B or half board.
PM me for info. You can park up in front of the front door!
Jude
I have friends at the Airpark there who do excellent accommodation, either B&B or half board.
PM me for info. You can park up in front of the front door!
Jude
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One last question what sort of budget would be practical?
We budget for each stop-over approx €30 landing, €10/night parking, €30 taxi to/from airport, €150/night hotel room (this can vary according to your taste of course). Add food and drink and entertainment (say €40/day each) and you should be OK. Food, drink and hotel bills can be from very cheap to very expensive - your choice.
Make sure you have a credit card with enough credit to get home by scheduled airline should you break down or to pay a local engineer to fix the problem.
As said previously if you plan well then the trip will be much easier thank you expect.
PS If you pre-book hotel rooms make sure you choose those with a decent cancellation policy (e.g. allow cancellations up to 24hrs in advance).
PS A very good tip I picked up from this forum is to always fuel up when you arrive if possible. Ask the tower when taxiing in to call the fueller. It also means that departure times can be a lot more predictable and less stressful.
Last edited by srayne; 22nd Sep 2012 at 08:29.
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Ok so putting the route into sky demon coming down western coast of France is full of danger areas are atc likely to allow a transit there although most only seem to be active at week days
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Aerofoil, I think we already answered that one. On a weekend it is unlikely you'd have any difficulty getting a crossing, I have done it on a weekday and been refused and a weekend where it wasn't an issue. You should plan for both options and be prepared to reroute if needed. If you look at my earlier posts I have provided a routing that will avoid all of the inland restricted areas. For VFR touring I would suggest have a desired route, a backup route and an assured route. The assured would be low level keeping clear of CAS, the backup perhaps being a higher level and where you may need some zone transits and the desired being your nice straight and short track.
