Holding altitude during turns
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Holding altitude during turns
This question is regarding to maintaining altitude during medium & steep turns.
If during a level turn at say 2,000ft, you notice your altitude drops slightly to say 1,950ft, you adjust your attitude to arrest this altitude drop. Now you are flying a level turn perfectly at this new altitude of 1,950ft. Do you adjust your attitude again to regain 2,000ft during the turn or just leave it at this new level?
If during a level turn at say 2,000ft, you notice your altitude drops slightly to say 1,950ft, you adjust your attitude to arrest this altitude drop. Now you are flying a level turn perfectly at this new altitude of 1,950ft. Do you adjust your attitude again to regain 2,000ft during the turn or just leave it at this new level?
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I suppose you must ask yourself why holding altitude was necessary. If you are following an instruction to hold an altitude, then you should. This would obviously include returning to it if you stray. If the intended precision was only for your own satisfaction, you blew it, on well....
Bear in mind that it would be quite uncommon for a request to maintain a particular altitude in a turn, and a steep turn to be required together - except perhaps on a flight test! The steep turn is rather an unusual event maneuver, where maintaining control of the aircraft is more important than altitude precision. The maintenance of altitude is perhaps more an effort to assure that you prevent the entry into a spiral dive.
If this is a flight test request, and you find yourself half way around, having corrected and still within the required tolerance of precision, I'd stay where you are. You're more likely to blow it the opposite way rushing to get back to the stated altitude, in the remaining half of the turn.
Bear in mind that it would be quite uncommon for a request to maintain a particular altitude in a turn, and a steep turn to be required together - except perhaps on a flight test! The steep turn is rather an unusual event maneuver, where maintaining control of the aircraft is more important than altitude precision. The maintenance of altitude is perhaps more an effort to assure that you prevent the entry into a spiral dive.
If this is a flight test request, and you find yourself half way around, having corrected and still within the required tolerance of precision, I'd stay where you are. You're more likely to blow it the opposite way rushing to get back to the stated altitude, in the remaining half of the turn.
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Personally, for me it is a matter of pride.
Unless intending to reduce or increase altitude, I always aim to hold altitude as precisely as possible in a turn, no matter how steep. I fly unstabilised helicopters of both US and European design and so the tendency to climb/left dive/right with turns reverses when I change cockpits.
Why do I think it is important - simply to be as much in control of my machine as I possibly can be; to be the most able pilot that I can be. As you practice more and more it becomes second nature and eventually you don't have to think about not losing / gaining height. That way when it actually matters you have the skill.
For fixed wing, one of my friends aims to make a steep turn and run through his own wake - like hitting a speed bump. He can do this time after time now, but does confess that it was long practice that led to this.
Unless intending to reduce or increase altitude, I always aim to hold altitude as precisely as possible in a turn, no matter how steep. I fly unstabilised helicopters of both US and European design and so the tendency to climb/left dive/right with turns reverses when I change cockpits.
Why do I think it is important - simply to be as much in control of my machine as I possibly can be; to be the most able pilot that I can be. As you practice more and more it becomes second nature and eventually you don't have to think about not losing / gaining height. That way when it actually matters you have the skill.
For fixed wing, one of my friends aims to make a steep turn and run through his own wake - like hitting a speed bump. He can do this time after time now, but does confess that it was long practice that led to this.
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Whether flying wings level or in various degrees of bank you need to be able to maintain an altitude.
When you advance into instrument flying you will be expected to fly at set altitudes whether flying straight and level or in a bank.
The fact that you have descended means that the input for various degrees of bank and the required pitch and power to maintain Altitude and speed are not correct.
I would not be afraid of "putting the aircraft back" to where it should be!! as only then will you get the true feel of what is required.
I have flown with experienced pilots who descend through an assigned altitude and almost sit there frozen until the controller picks up on the fact that they are 200 feet too low!
There are times for finger tip control of attitude and power and times when you need to grab the bull by the horns and have the confidence to place the aircraft where you want it smartly.
it is about confidence and feel so if your not where you should be put it back
As John above said its a matter of pride in your flying to aim for perfection to be able to fly varying degrees of bank and to be so precise that the altitude needle does not move and you roll out on the nail.
To accept a lower altitude as your new altitude is just sloppy flying and that is not what we all aim for or aspire to achieve.
When you advance into instrument flying you will be expected to fly at set altitudes whether flying straight and level or in a bank.
The fact that you have descended means that the input for various degrees of bank and the required pitch and power to maintain Altitude and speed are not correct.
I would not be afraid of "putting the aircraft back" to where it should be!! as only then will you get the true feel of what is required.
I have flown with experienced pilots who descend through an assigned altitude and almost sit there frozen until the controller picks up on the fact that they are 200 feet too low!
There are times for finger tip control of attitude and power and times when you need to grab the bull by the horns and have the confidence to place the aircraft where you want it smartly.
it is about confidence and feel so if your not where you should be put it back
As John above said its a matter of pride in your flying to aim for perfection to be able to fly varying degrees of bank and to be so precise that the altitude needle does not move and you roll out on the nail.
To accept a lower altitude as your new altitude is just sloppy flying and that is not what we all aim for or aspire to achieve.
Last edited by Pace; 14th Sep 2012 at 07:53.
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John R81 said:
For fixed wing, one of my friends aims to make a steep turn and run through his own wake - like hitting a speed bump. He can do this time after time now, but does confess that it was long practice that led to this.
I was taught this during my PPL training and thought achieving hitting my own wake was a good indication of a level steep turn. However, someone then pointed out to me that the wake will be descending, so perhaps all I managed to achieve was to lose height at the same rate as my wake!
For fixed wing, one of my friends aims to make a steep turn and run through his own wake - like hitting a speed bump. He can do this time after time now, but does confess that it was long practice that led to this.
I was taught this during my PPL training and thought achieving hitting my own wake was a good indication of a level steep turn. However, someone then pointed out to me that the wake will be descending, so perhaps all I managed to achieve was to lose height at the same rate as my wake!
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What you should be trying to achieve is where you roll in to a bank at say 3000 feet hold a set degree of bank with the ball centered, have that needle act as if it is set in concrete all the way round and roll out with it still set in concrete at 3000 feet! As long as the altimeter needle is not literally set in concrete and jammed 
you have not descended
Pace
you have not descended Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Sep 2012 at 08:26.
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I think we should treat precision as part of our continuing development. Certainly, in our day to day flying, as non professionals, gaining or losing a hundred feet isn't the end of the world. But being able to maintain a level as a skill is worth practicing throughout our lives in the air. I want to demonstrate to myself that I am in charge of my aircraft. Or I should say was as I don't fly very much at all now. Certainly never alone. I was a very sloppy pilot. It was getting into a scrape that made me realise that near enough wasn't good enough.
Perhaps this isn't relevant to the original post but I was thinking about an incident when I read it.
Perhaps this isn't relevant to the original post but I was thinking about an incident when I read it.
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Effortless
I hope your incident was not the reason for your lack of flying now as we all have incidents at one time or another which then become a very good lesson.
Obviously hand flying will vary from one pilot to another so we tend to aspire to get as close to the perfect steep turn as we can.
OCAS its not so important to be a precision pilot as it is in CAS.
What was your incident as I have plenty of mine to share too and regularly do too in these forums good, bad or plain ugly
Pace
I hope your incident was not the reason for your lack of flying now as we all have incidents at one time or another which then become a very good lesson.
Obviously hand flying will vary from one pilot to another so we tend to aspire to get as close to the perfect steep turn as we can.
OCAS its not so important to be a precision pilot as it is in CAS.
What was your incident as I have plenty of mine to share too and regularly do too in these forums good, bad or plain ugly
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Sep 2012 at 09:47.
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One should learn to hold altitude during a turn.
This means pulling back a little, and then pushing a little when one has levelled out (otherwise you will climb up a bit).
OCAS, perhaps no need for it but one should always aim to fly accurately. It's not hard and then when you need to do it you can do it. If you are flying at an intended 3000ft, say, and you drop down to 2700ft, and you let that go as 'OK' then why not let it go further?
This means pulling back a little, and then pushing a little when one has levelled out (otherwise you will climb up a bit).
OCAS, perhaps no need for it but one should always aim to fly accurately. It's not hard and then when you need to do it you can do it. If you are flying at an intended 3000ft, say, and you drop down to 2700ft, and you let that go as 'OK' then why not let it go further?
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Thanks pace but it wasn't that bad. Banal in fact, just got me a bollocking in front of a few people. Never really bothered me but I was glad of the lesson. I learned why my instructors were so anal.
I was stopped from flying by the m.o.. Terrible thing old age. Most of my career changes have been medical. Did think of going down the NPPL route but I still have a few friends who take me up.
I was stopped from flying by the m.o.. Terrible thing old age. Most of my career changes have been medical. Did think of going down the NPPL route but I still have a few friends who take me up.
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I think this question almost sums up for me the great advantage of doing an instrument rating or other advanced instrument training. Even if you never plan to fly an approach in anger, the idea that changes in your altitude, heading or attitude or airspeed should be deliberate is a great thing to strive for IMHO.
And my view on the OP's question, is that unless you have gained too much airspeed and pulling back could really cause a spiral dive or stress the airframe, get back to the altitude.
And my view on the OP's question, is that unless you have gained too much airspeed and pulling back could really cause a spiral dive or stress the airframe, get back to the altitude.
Last edited by jecuk; 14th Sep 2012 at 11:09.
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It's either a level turn in which case that is what it should be or a descending or climbing turn.
It is good practice to be comfortable with all!
Try a descending turn to level still in the turn at a set altitude all good practice ;
As stated I have been with IR rated pilots in Cas who bust a level!
On realising that they act in slow motion till the inevitable bollocking by ATC!
Why ? There are times to grab the thing by the horns and quickly and firmly plant it where it should be ! It is the same with small altitude excursions wings level or in a bank!
Pace
It is good practice to be comfortable with all!
Try a descending turn to level still in the turn at a set altitude all good practice ;
As stated I have been with IR rated pilots in Cas who bust a level!
On realising that they act in slow motion till the inevitable bollocking by ATC!
Why ? There are times to grab the thing by the horns and quickly and firmly plant it where it should be ! It is the same with small altitude excursions wings level or in a bank!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Sep 2012 at 11:41.
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Thanks pace but it wasn't that bad. Banal in fact, just got me a bollocking in front of other people
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One should learn to hold altitude during a turn.
This means pulling back a little, and then pushing a little when one has levelled out (otherwise you will climb up a bit).
This means pulling back a little, and then pushing a little when one has levelled out (otherwise you will climb up a bit).
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Not quite ; ) you have two energy supplies! The power plant and potential energy in the airframe! If that was the case what would a glider do in steep turns with no engine ?
Admittedly with no lift the glider will have to trade altitude for speed but not initially
Pace
Admittedly with no lift the glider will have to trade altitude for speed but not initially
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Sep 2012 at 14:14.
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Pulling back in a steep turn in which the nose is dropping (spiral dive) will tighten and steepen the spiral. The 'G' loading and the speed will rise alarmingly!
You'll need to take off most of the bank (with co-ordinated rudder and power reduction), regain the correct attitude, then roll the bank back on with associated power. Even in a glider you'll need to roll off the bank before restoring the correct attitude, else you'll just tighten the spiral.
Never mind instrument flight, nothing sharpens your handling skills like aerobatics does. And max rate level steep turns are a good test of elevator, aileron, rudder, and power co-ordination.
You'll need to take off most of the bank (with co-ordinated rudder and power reduction), regain the correct attitude, then roll the bank back on with associated power. Even in a glider you'll need to roll off the bank before restoring the correct attitude, else you'll just tighten the spiral.
Never mind instrument flight, nothing sharpens your handling skills like aerobatics does. And max rate level steep turns are a good test of elevator, aileron, rudder, and power co-ordination.
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I like to think of back pressure increasing angle of attack to support the G-load associated with turning, with any additional power offsetting the drag associated with higher angle of attack
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So would it be correct to say that using both increased back pressure and power would be the best method to recover lost altitude in a steep turn?
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 14th Sep 2012 at 18:08.
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So would it be correct to say that using both increased back pressure and power would be the best method to recover lost altitude in a steep turn?
Turns create increased G, which increases drag. Pull back to maintain altitude with increased G, and add power to maintain your speed against the increased drag.