lucky escape after collision and beach landing in Holland
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Wasn`t everyone on the same frequency,operating in the same area...?
Last edited by Dan the weegie; 10th Sep 2012 at 15:08.
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The following video starts a bit earlier than the previous NOS one (couldn't open the other either); if I am not mistaken the Piper Cub which was followed by the 172 can be seen at the beginning at the right edge of the video. Possibly the 172 crew concentrated (in hindsight too much) on the Cub and their position relative to it, not even expecting another plane nearby. In addition, the dark Cub appears far better visible than the Husky which somewhat blends into the background in comparison:
Two airplanes collide in the air and are stuck together ~ ViralVideoCenter
Two airplanes collide in the air and are stuck together ~ ViralVideoCenter
Last edited by Armchairflyer; 10th Sep 2012 at 15:37. Reason: Caption deleted
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Well, this goes some way to explaining it. The Husky sits right in the glare of the sun, a bit off to the right and below the Cessna pilot, who probably focussed on the dark Cub (his intended *target* after all). Very hard to see - don't forget the camera is mounted on the right. Btw, I don't see the banner the Husky was towing, although from above this probably would be all but invisible.
Not saying this was inevitable, but the holes in the cheese really lined up here.
What I don't quite understand is that it appears that either the Cessna descended or the Husky ascended at the last moment, thereby flying into each other. It looks like had they both maintained their flight paths they would have passed each other very, very closely but without contact.
Not saying this was inevitable, but the holes in the cheese really lined up here.
What I don't quite understand is that it appears that either the Cessna descended or the Husky ascended at the last moment, thereby flying into each other. It looks like had they both maintained their flight paths they would have passed each other very, very closely but without contact.
Last edited by 172driver; 10th Sep 2012 at 15:44.
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Lesson to be learnt
Seems to me that here we are fortunate to have video footage of a serious mid-air collision that occurred at relatively slow closing speeds in good VMC and should never have happened.
We are also fortunate to have the survival of the pilots. (Some of the pilots involved hold CPL's). Taken from the video there is 22 secs of possible visible contact.
From the video, I find the "glare" arguement to work in favour of assisting visual contact.
Transponders: in my opinion all three aircraft were probably Mode S7000 and in radio contact (or listening to) Amsterdam Info 124.3Hz. Some kind of traffic conflict service would be appreciated.
Note that the Husky is located some 2 miles right of the beach centre-line following the Right Hand Rule, which is not widely recogised in Holland.
We should draw as much information and conclusions as possible from this accident. In most mid-air's we do not have this level of factual information.
We are also fortunate to have the survival of the pilots. (Some of the pilots involved hold CPL's). Taken from the video there is 22 secs of possible visible contact.
From the video, I find the "glare" arguement to work in favour of assisting visual contact.
Transponders: in my opinion all three aircraft were probably Mode S7000 and in radio contact (or listening to) Amsterdam Info 124.3Hz. Some kind of traffic conflict service would be appreciated.
Note that the Husky is located some 2 miles right of the beach centre-line following the Right Hand Rule, which is not widely recogised in Holland.
We should draw as much information and conclusions as possible from this accident. In most mid-air's we do not have this level of factual information.
Last edited by flyme273; 10th Sep 2012 at 19:08. Reason: mis-spell
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Absolutely amazing that both evidently separated, after being stuck together, and landed without injury to occupants. Slow speeds and sturdy classic aircraft....
Looked for a while as if they would have to fly as an unusual type of twin!
Cessna on top, Husky below; how would you decide with the other Captain who was in control?
Certainly the glare and the haze that shows up in the video footage may have obscured the one below and in front ....two banner towing planes along a beach, unaware of each other ahead of time? and a third plane filming?
always a recipe for an accident. Seems to me Dutch authorities may require banner towing aircraft to at least file a flight plan in the future.
Looked for a while as if they would have to fly as an unusual type of twin!
Cessna on top, Husky below; how would you decide with the other Captain who was in control?
Certainly the glare and the haze that shows up in the video footage may have obscured the one below and in front ....two banner towing planes along a beach, unaware of each other ahead of time? and a third plane filming?
always a recipe for an accident. Seems to me Dutch authorities may require banner towing aircraft to at least file a flight plan in the future.
in my opinion all three aircraft were probably Mode S7000 and in radio contact (or listening to) Amsterdam Info 124.3Hz
Any source for this? And how high your probability?
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 10th Sep 2012 at 22:48.
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This happened with one of my former flight instructors! Both aircraft were in airspace class G, the PA-28 went on top of the Cessna 152.
The C152 got it propeller ripped, as well as the flaps and aileron were damaged while the PA28 had a crash landing and caught fire from a fuel leak.
No one died, the pilots from de Piper got some injuries because of the hard landing.
If some one want to read the report (have to translate from Portuguese, no English version available), there's the link: Report
The C152 got it propeller ripped, as well as the flaps and aileron were damaged while the PA28 had a crash landing and caught fire from a fuel leak.
No one died, the pilots from de Piper got some injuries because of the hard landing.
If some one want to read the report (have to translate from Portuguese, no English version available), there's the link: Report
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The thing I find extraordinary is that, while I can sort of see how the Cessna pilot with his attention on the Cub might miss seeing the Husky, the pilot of the Cub, off to the side as it was, apparently also failed to see it and alert the Cessna to the impending midair.
Since the Cessna was filming the Cub I presume they were in radio contact during the formate. If the Cessna was doing an unplanned formate then I think he's got some hard questions to answer.
A very very lucky escape for all concerned.
Since the Cessna was filming the Cub I presume they were in radio contact during the formate. If the Cessna was doing an unplanned formate then I think he's got some hard questions to answer.
A very very lucky escape for all concerned.
Last edited by DeltaV; 11th Sep 2012 at 06:14.
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Husky seemed to first try to overtake and then mush towards preceding aircraft....Why did'nt passenger on right seat warn pilot, after all what is caught on camera is self explanatory....
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Seems to me Dutch authorities may require banner towing aircraft to at least file a flight plan in the future.
I don't know about the other aircraft, but I suspect the same. Rotterdam is the nearest airport where they can support banner towing operations.
But I don't see why a flight plan would have made a difference. It's class G airspace over there, and the best you can hope for (from Amsterdam Info) is a Flight Information Service. Traffic Service is not normally provided in the Netherlands (unfortunately), and even then you cannot conceivably expect them to provide TS to aircraft in close formation.
The only technology that would've helped here is some form of PCAS/TCAS, or Flarm (but both aircraft would have had to carry Flarm for it to be useful.)
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The only technology that would've helped here is some form of PCAS/TCAS, or Flarm (but both aircraft would have had to carry Flarm for it to be useful.)
However, the level of lookout, for whatever reason, appears very poor. If these guys were so pre-occupied with whatever it was they were doing, then one would have to guess that any 'technology', may also have been missed/ignored.
I have watched this several times, and it may be that both other aircraft, were fixated on the cub, which was positioned far right. The report, and interviews with all pilots concerned, will make for intertesting reading.
Anyway, they lived to tell the tale....
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You could though limit the amount of ariel work in a particular sector.
The elections are this Wednesday, and last weekend we had glorious days with the beaches packed. Towing banners along the beach would get maximum attention and (if you believe the marketing guys) maximum votes to the parties involved.
There were also several banner towing flights over Rotterdam, because of the Havendagen (Harbour Days), which attracted 1000s of people. Rotterdam however lies in the EHRD CTR (class C) so Rotterdam Tower was able to provide traffic information to those.
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Not really the airspace is one thing but commercial work is regulated in otherways.
The logistics of who, what, when and where would have to be set out.
But a mid air with two banner towing aircraft involved is a good enough reason in my book.
You would just have slot times going down the beach saves any fannying about just have them at 15 min intervals if you miss your slot because you stuffed up your uplift tough luck. Photo sorties need to be done away from the active tow line. NOTAM the tow line as well so private flights know they are going to be about
Two aircraft trying to do the same thing over the same bit of airspace without any coordination is always going to end in tears.
Marketing folk are a bunch of fannys I can quite imagine the pilots instructions are to follow the other one and try and get in front of it or some such rubbish.
The logistics of who, what, when and where would have to be set out.
But a mid air with two banner towing aircraft involved is a good enough reason in my book.
You would just have slot times going down the beach saves any fannying about just have them at 15 min intervals if you miss your slot because you stuffed up your uplift tough luck. Photo sorties need to be done away from the active tow line. NOTAM the tow line as well so private flights know they are going to be about
Two aircraft trying to do the same thing over the same bit of airspace without any coordination is always going to end in tears.
Marketing folk are a bunch of fannys I can quite imagine the pilots instructions are to follow the other one and try and get in front of it or some such rubbish.
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What I find incredible is that the cameraman kept filming without alerting the Cessna pilot to the close proximity of the Husky?!
Aviation aware cameraman: Tells pilot immediately that there is another aircraft low and to the right - has he seen it?
Aviation un-aware cameraman: I'm getting cracking shots of this other aircraft low and to the right - any chance of a closer shot!?
Either way pilot takes avoiding action.
FOK
Aviation aware cameraman: Tells pilot immediately that there is another aircraft low and to the right - has he seen it?
Aviation un-aware cameraman: I'm getting cracking shots of this other aircraft low and to the right - any chance of a closer shot!?
Either way pilot takes avoiding action.
FOK
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I am quite sure that the onboard camera that filmed the collision had no human eye behind it but was just attached to the dashboard. From what can be heard on the video it seems to me that the cameraman (or the pilot?) did notice the imminent collision, but too late (not even one second before impact). I speculate that the cameraman was focused on the Cub, too.
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I struggle to imagine how this is not a case of negligence on the part of the pilot of the Cessna. One of the "reality checks" a pilot is morally bound to do is to say to one's self:
"Okay, I'm about to devote more than normal attention to [whatever is being done - videoing a Cub, in this case, perhaps]. So, before I get right into it, I must have a good look around, so as to assure that once my attention is concentrated on the subject, I can go for a minute at a time without another aircraft sneaking up on me."
Then every minute, a look around, or a qualified lookout person reports any traffic. As has been said, this should make for good reading, come report time.
Though I have no idea the details of this event. If there was intended formation flying between the Cessna and the Cub, there should have been radio communication too. The pilot of the Cub then bears some responsibility for traffic reporting and avoidance for both aircraft. Whenever I fly formation air to air photography, there is a prior ground briefing. Three things are vital to understand and agree: The subject aircraft flies steadily on the intended route, and the photographing aircraft forms on it, Who will do what in the case of a loss of visual contact/separation, And, the subject aircraft pilot is taking responsibility for traffic awareness for both aircraft, as the pilot of the photographing aircraft should be watching the subject aircraft only, as he forms up on it.
A long time ago, by prior agreement, I was formed up on a friend in his 182. He lead, I formed up. We had briefed traffic awareness (he was to do while I formed up), but I guess he got distracted. I suddenly saw him dive away - so unexpectedly, and quickly, that I could not follow him in formation. I asked him what he was doing. He replied: " did you not see that Twin Comanche?". "No" I replied. "I was formed up on you, and you were watching traffic - right?"..... "Oh yeah, sorry..."
I never did see the Twin Comanche, I have no idea how close it got to us/me.
I will not fly formation with a pilot until I have briefed with them face to face, and really believe that they will fly as agreed.
"Okay, I'm about to devote more than normal attention to [whatever is being done - videoing a Cub, in this case, perhaps]. So, before I get right into it, I must have a good look around, so as to assure that once my attention is concentrated on the subject, I can go for a minute at a time without another aircraft sneaking up on me."
Then every minute, a look around, or a qualified lookout person reports any traffic. As has been said, this should make for good reading, come report time.
Though I have no idea the details of this event. If there was intended formation flying between the Cessna and the Cub, there should have been radio communication too. The pilot of the Cub then bears some responsibility for traffic reporting and avoidance for both aircraft. Whenever I fly formation air to air photography, there is a prior ground briefing. Three things are vital to understand and agree: The subject aircraft flies steadily on the intended route, and the photographing aircraft forms on it, Who will do what in the case of a loss of visual contact/separation, And, the subject aircraft pilot is taking responsibility for traffic awareness for both aircraft, as the pilot of the photographing aircraft should be watching the subject aircraft only, as he forms up on it.
A long time ago, by prior agreement, I was formed up on a friend in his 182. He lead, I formed up. We had briefed traffic awareness (he was to do while I formed up), but I guess he got distracted. I suddenly saw him dive away - so unexpectedly, and quickly, that I could not follow him in formation. I asked him what he was doing. He replied: " did you not see that Twin Comanche?". "No" I replied. "I was formed up on you, and you were watching traffic - right?"..... "Oh yeah, sorry..."
I never did see the Twin Comanche, I have no idea how close it got to us/me.
I will not fly formation with a pilot until I have briefed with them face to face, and really believe that they will fly as agreed.
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PilotDAR,
Having watched the video I suspect that the pilot that ended up on top, probably say the other aircraft on their starboard, same level, which they were over taking.
If I was to take a guess, I'd say that they might have become fixated on that aircraft, avoiding it, and making sure that that it had seen him, and might have neglected their lookout in other directions.
Hence they wouldn't have seen the other aircraft ahead.
Not a good things to do, but it is easy to become fixated on the one "known" aircraft (where that is one seen or one reported and you're looking for) to the neglect of looking for others in other directions. Not good, be an easy trap to fall into. As always knowledge of the potential pitfall, and experience helps to avoid falling into it.
Having watched the video I suspect that the pilot that ended up on top, probably say the other aircraft on their starboard, same level, which they were over taking.
If I was to take a guess, I'd say that they might have become fixated on that aircraft, avoiding it, and making sure that that it had seen him, and might have neglected their lookout in other directions.
Hence they wouldn't have seen the other aircraft ahead.
Not a good things to do, but it is easy to become fixated on the one "known" aircraft (where that is one seen or one reported and you're looking for) to the neglect of looking for others in other directions. Not good, be an easy trap to fall into. As always knowledge of the potential pitfall, and experience helps to avoid falling into it.