dr 400 160
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dr 400 160
Hi all,
Its time to try something new... Can anyone give me any tips and pros and cons for the dr400 160?
Im thinking of doing a check out on tatenhills one and wondered if anyone can shed some light or has any advice/tips
I have only flown c152s
Its time to try something new... Can anyone give me any tips and pros and cons for the dr400 160?
Im thinking of doing a check out on tatenhills one and wondered if anyone can shed some light or has any advice/tips
I have only flown c152s
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They are far more responsive than a 152. Stick controls too.
My opinion...you'll love it. Once you've got used to the aircraft and stick you'll wish you tried it ages ago!
Great views out of the Robins too!
My opinion...you'll love it. Once you've got used to the aircraft and stick you'll wish you tried it ages ago!
Great views out of the Robins too!
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dr 400 160
Hi thanks guys... Ill look more into it.
Im not sure about the tanks ill find out more about it when i get up there and can book a slot.
Just wanted to try something different and it looked good compared to the pipers abd cessnas but ive kinda got used to the high wing so not sure how id feel with a low wing... Certainly looking forward to the views though!
Im not sure about the tanks ill find out more about it when i get up there and can book a slot.
Just wanted to try something different and it looked good compared to the pipers abd cessnas but ive kinda got used to the high wing so not sure how id feel with a low wing... Certainly looking forward to the views though!
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Have flown Robins for the last two years. From the 108 - bit underpowered (but will still be in it this afternoon, two up), through to the 160, they are all good. As the others have said, great view out of the cockpit, with the low wing being , in my opinion, an advantage over the Cessnas. The tank is in the fuselage. Only downside, given my low hours experience is that they get affected by thermals and low level wind, possibly because they are made of wood and are so light. Neverlethess, I really enjoy having a stick and manual flaps.
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They're great. I fly them a lot. The -160 will leap off the ground with four adults and 110 liters (main tank) fuel.
Depending on the exact variant, you may just have a 110 liter main tank in the fuselage, or the version that adds two 40-liter aux tanks in the wing roots. This will give you a bladder-bursting 6 hours endurance at relatively normal cruise speeds. But if you do have the version with the aux tanks, take a good look at the fuel selector: BACKWARDS is main, while FORWARD is off. Not a very ergonomic design.
View is great, cockpit is logically laid out. Most versions have a NVFR setup, but there are IFR models as well.
One disadvantage I find on long flights is that the seats are not very comfy if you're tall. (I'm 1.86.) The seats don't just slide backwards, but tilt backwards a bit as well. A bit too much at its most rearward position, in my opinion.
Another thing to watch out for is that the nosewheel has a center lock, so that it is aligned with the fuselage in-flight. It requires a certain amount of weight on the nosewheel before it unlocks. With a rear CofG and a really smooth landing, you may not put enough weight on the nosewheel to unlock, which means you have no directional control whatsoever. Just pump the brakes briefly and you're sorted.
Depending on the exact variant, you may just have a 110 liter main tank in the fuselage, or the version that adds two 40-liter aux tanks in the wing roots. This will give you a bladder-bursting 6 hours endurance at relatively normal cruise speeds. But if you do have the version with the aux tanks, take a good look at the fuel selector: BACKWARDS is main, while FORWARD is off. Not a very ergonomic design.
View is great, cockpit is logically laid out. Most versions have a NVFR setup, but there are IFR models as well.
One disadvantage I find on long flights is that the seats are not very comfy if you're tall. (I'm 1.86.) The seats don't just slide backwards, but tilt backwards a bit as well. A bit too much at its most rearward position, in my opinion.
Another thing to watch out for is that the nosewheel has a center lock, so that it is aligned with the fuselage in-flight. It requires a certain amount of weight on the nosewheel before it unlocks. With a rear CofG and a really smooth landing, you may not put enough weight on the nosewheel to unlock, which means you have no directional control whatsoever. Just pump the brakes briefly and you're sorted.
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Sounds nice. I sometimes fly a DR400-115 which is lovely but underpowered. The -160 would be nice. Does it have the wing tanks?
Tim
Tim
Best of the bunch in my opinion. It has almost the same MAUW as the 180 but with greater economy.
Lovely aircraft. Shame they fitted it with a training wheel at the front!
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Was going to add the pay load on the 160 is pretty decent for what it is.
As said my only point I don't like about them is I feel they are slightly under powered. That said upgrading from a 152 you won't notice. More apparent if your used to faster equipment.
As said my only point I don't like about them is I feel they are slightly under powered. That said upgrading from a 152 you won't notice. More apparent if your used to faster equipment.
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Just pump the brakes briefly and you're sorted.
After landing with the nose wheel on the ground ease the stick forward to unlock, gentle use of the brakes only if needed.
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Robin DR400
The first thing is to understand how the wing works, once you have this in your mind the Robin is easy to master.
The outboard section of the wing is washed out in terms of Angle of Attack compared to the inboard section, this has the effect of putting the outboard section at zero A of A when in the cruise and so cuts done the indused drag, maximum advantage of this can be taken by cruising at 6-8000 ft.
When slowing down this can be a bit of a problem as it makes the aircraft quite slippery untill the aircraft slows to about 70 kt, this when the outer wing starts to produce lift and drag, as you approach 60 kt the drag increase is very pronounced and as you may have guessed by now the drag rise between 60 & 50 kts is very pronounced so this is a bit of a trap for young players.
My advice is to get the aircraft slowed to 1.3Vs quite early in the final approach untill you have a few hours on the aircraft.
The Robin can carry a lot more Payload than most light aircraft ( in terms of % Weight) so feels almost a different aircraft at MTOW compared with being flown with two people and 80 LTS of fuel. So when you load it up to MTOW don't be surprised at the apparent lack of performance...............it will still be better than a Piper with the same engine!
As backpacker says the nose leg can give troubles but tis is due to incorrect servicing of the landing gear shock struts and should not reflect on the aircraft design. Rather than using the bad practices mentioned above to unlock the nose leg if you have a problem I would take the aircraft back to maintenance and tell them to service the legs in accordance with the maintenance manual.
The 160 is the most economical of the DR400 series and can almost match the 180 for cruise speed but not in climb and take off performance.
I highly recomend the type as a touring aircraft and have taken my 180 as far as Crete, the Robin is best enjoyed on long trips so my advice would be to do the check out on the aircraft and then take it to the sunny end of Europe.
The outboard section of the wing is washed out in terms of Angle of Attack compared to the inboard section, this has the effect of putting the outboard section at zero A of A when in the cruise and so cuts done the indused drag, maximum advantage of this can be taken by cruising at 6-8000 ft.
When slowing down this can be a bit of a problem as it makes the aircraft quite slippery untill the aircraft slows to about 70 kt, this when the outer wing starts to produce lift and drag, as you approach 60 kt the drag increase is very pronounced and as you may have guessed by now the drag rise between 60 & 50 kts is very pronounced so this is a bit of a trap for young players.
My advice is to get the aircraft slowed to 1.3Vs quite early in the final approach untill you have a few hours on the aircraft.
The Robin can carry a lot more Payload than most light aircraft ( in terms of % Weight) so feels almost a different aircraft at MTOW compared with being flown with two people and 80 LTS of fuel. So when you load it up to MTOW don't be surprised at the apparent lack of performance...............it will still be better than a Piper with the same engine!
As backpacker says the nose leg can give troubles but tis is due to incorrect servicing of the landing gear shock struts and should not reflect on the aircraft design. Rather than using the bad practices mentioned above to unlock the nose leg if you have a problem I would take the aircraft back to maintenance and tell them to service the legs in accordance with the maintenance manual.
The 160 is the most economical of the DR400 series and can almost match the 180 for cruise speed but not in climb and take off performance.
I highly recomend the type as a touring aircraft and have taken my 180 as far as Crete, the Robin is best enjoyed on long trips so my advice would be to do the check out on the aircraft and then take it to the sunny end of Europe.
Last edited by A and C; 7th Sep 2012 at 15:01.
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dr 400 160
Thanks guys some really good advice...
Ill pop back and let you know how i get on.... The nosewheel issue im not looking forward to!
Ill pop back and let you know how i get on.... The nosewheel issue im not looking forward to!
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Don't worry about that nosewheel issue too much. It only manifests itself, like I said, with aft CofG landings which are very smoothly on the mainwheels and put no weight on the nosewheel whatsoever. If you then keep the stick pulled it may bite you. But as soon as you put weight on the nosewheel, either by putting the stick forward or by braking, it's over.
It's only when you don't know about this that it may bite. Like it did to the pilot of our -160 a few weeks ago. He landed, lost directional control, rolled off the runway and hit the PAPI with the wing. Both the PAPI and the aircraft U/S. The PAPI was repaired in a matter of days, the aircraft will take a little longer.
It's only when you don't know about this that it may bite. Like it did to the pilot of our -160 a few weeks ago. He landed, lost directional control, rolled off the runway and hit the PAPI with the wing. Both the PAPI and the aircraft U/S. The PAPI was repaired in a matter of days, the aircraft will take a little longer.
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dr 400 160
True! Thanks for the heads up... Im the sort of person that "lady luck" takes a swipe at every now and then too!
Thats why i asked for tips and advice.. I like to be prepared
Thats why i asked for tips and advice.. I like to be prepared
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As a low hours PPL I have had no issues with the nosewheel on landing. Compared to the taildraggers I started on - Cub followed by Jodel - it is a positive joy to land a Robin. I must add however that my home airfield is grass, although I have landed it on hard runways as well.
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Gama Engineering at Fairoaks will have the new DR400 diesel with Garmin G500 glass cockpit on display with Mistral Aviation during their open day on 15 September.
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Baclpacker
I am totally amazed and a little worried that you seem to think that the "nose wheel issue" as you call it is acceptable.
It is ONLY if the landing gear has not keen properly serviced that there is an issue with the nose gear unlocking at any C of G position.
You should not accept sloppy maintenance, the manual is very specific about the quantity of oil and the air pressure that is required to be put in the shock strut and this differs between DR400 types, the oil quantity is critical in setting the spring rate so must be checked.
Spring rate in the main gear is the controlling factor in the attitude that the aircraft sits on the ground and therefore the weight that is taken by the nose gear, if the spring rate is to low in the main gear or to high in the nose gear then it will become more difficult to disengage the nose gear centering when the aircraft lands.
This is the second tine I have heard of a DR400 hitting the PAPI's, the other incident hid not end so well, the aircraft caught fire and burnt out.
One of the best ways to stop a DR400 on a slippery runway is to hold the stick to the rear and use aerodynamic drag to slow the aircraft, indeed it was the technique that I used when operating into a 340m grass strip in the winter when the grass was slippery, you simply never had to use the brakes. Bad servicing of the legs would stop the use of such techniques and so is another reason that badly serviced landing gear should not be accepted.
All that having been said don't be put off flying the DR400 it is a great aircraft and has far better performance than most.
It is ONLY if the landing gear has not keen properly serviced that there is an issue with the nose gear unlocking at any C of G position.
You should not accept sloppy maintenance, the manual is very specific about the quantity of oil and the air pressure that is required to be put in the shock strut and this differs between DR400 types, the oil quantity is critical in setting the spring rate so must be checked.
Spring rate in the main gear is the controlling factor in the attitude that the aircraft sits on the ground and therefore the weight that is taken by the nose gear, if the spring rate is to low in the main gear or to high in the nose gear then it will become more difficult to disengage the nose gear centering when the aircraft lands.
This is the second tine I have heard of a DR400 hitting the PAPI's, the other incident hid not end so well, the aircraft caught fire and burnt out.
One of the best ways to stop a DR400 on a slippery runway is to hold the stick to the rear and use aerodynamic drag to slow the aircraft, indeed it was the technique that I used when operating into a 340m grass strip in the winter when the grass was slippery, you simply never had to use the brakes. Bad servicing of the legs would stop the use of such techniques and so is another reason that badly serviced landing gear should not be accepted.
All that having been said don't be put off flying the DR400 it is a great aircraft and has far better performance than most.
Last edited by A and C; 8th Sep 2012 at 05:42.
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dr 400 160
Thanks.... To be honest tatenhill are very hot on maintenance so i think it will be in top condition anyway.
Im excited to give it a go.... Cessnas getting a bit boring and boy does it feel slow after you qualify!
Im excited to give it a go.... Cessnas getting a bit boring and boy does it feel slow after you qualify!