Welshpool visiting??
What's your point tho WWW?
Merely to point out the case for the defence. Flying school owners are never ever ever popular - name one - but there were positive aspects to the reign of TB.
Cost of living for you was especially low...
Yep i was living at home. Plenty of guys lived in the caravan park for £35 a week... try that in the SE England.
I've yet to meet a Flying Instructor who didn't want an airline job, so the fact that they couldn't wait to move on is perhaps a bit of a "tabloid" headline for a general fact.
Exactly. The CFI had been there for several years. The reason most left was for the next rung on the ladder. Some were fired for not being up to scratch.
At this point, yep, there have been job losses. That's bad for everyone concerned.
Very bad. Think of poor Caroline and Adam.
But you have to remember what the aims of the Airport were when it was first built.
The sole aim was for CT to get their aeroplane as close to Newtown as possible. The rest of the public money was just an exercise in grabbing available development funds.
It was there to enhance Mid-Wales' business capabilities and encourage companies to move in. In this regard I remember two ocassions when the Mid Wales Development chartered a BM Dash-7 to fly from BHX to Welshpool with potential investors - that was an entertaining day, and I still have the White Copy of the Loadsheet saying Welshpool to Birmingham as proof!! These aims were never reached because of the lack of agreement between the owner and the operator.
And just which business, apart from CT who are already happy with the airport, owns a company aircraft? None. Perhaps there might be one I don't know about but I'd be suprised if they needed more than 800m and an ILS. Welshpool will NEVER EVER be a viable business airport. Powys is one of the least industrialised, poorest and lightly populated in the country. The LAST thing it needs is a business airport. Putting a dual carriageway to Shrewsbury would be a far better deal. Halfpenny green struggles and thats on the edge of the Nations 2nd city...
I seem to remember that Pool refused to use the Control Tower after that was built unless they got an additional 7 year contract. Yep, it got that petty.
Yes it did. A lot of pettines on all sides. Which was sad.
I don't usually disagree with you, but the comment about sniping was a little bit off. I know who you're thinking about, but the majority of the "commentators" have been entirely justified in their comments.
I wasn't actually thinking about anyone in particular. Its fine by me if we have slightly differing views about this one. Thats allowed. Thats healthy. I acknowledge truths in your view as you do mine.
In the future though, I'd be surprised if this move doesn't yield more jobs for both the airport and, perhaps more importantly in an area of pretty substantial unemployment, more resultant jobs in the local economy.
As I say. I just can't see which business is going to use the place for what purpose. I HOPE it does and I am wrong. Nothing more would I like for Welshpool airport to become a major airfield. I could move home and buy half the High Street for the price of a 2 bedroom flat here!
And that comment about Pool developing the airport into a "thriving facility for the community" is a little bit of poetic licence surely when a vast proportion of the area's PPL holders were driving to Sleap or Shobdon. That's not a great advert is it?!?
60 students a year went through Welshpool. The vast majority rented a room when there and ate out during their course whilst visiting the pub. Lots of people gave "trial lessons" to loved ones - I must have flown half of Montgomeryshire on those! If you fancied a PPL then the cheapest school in the UK was on your doorstep. They had a fleet of 13 singles - and they did very little training at weekends. This meant that you could hire an aircraft on a whim at weekends with no notice even in high summer. That was good. On nice days locals would actually come in to have a cup of tea, slice of cake and sit outside watching the aircraft take off and land. I don't know any locals who went to Shobdon, a few did go to Sleap. I don't really know why.
Anyway, ho hum, as they say....
Yeah, well I wish Bob all the best I really do. I count him as a friend. He was the first person who ever took me airborne. He is a Thoroughly Nice Chap. I do not wish to slag off the changes. I merely seek to mourn the passing of what was a remarkably successful school which people laughed at when it opened.
WWW
Merely to point out the case for the defence. Flying school owners are never ever ever popular - name one - but there were positive aspects to the reign of TB.
Cost of living for you was especially low...
Yep i was living at home. Plenty of guys lived in the caravan park for £35 a week... try that in the SE England.
I've yet to meet a Flying Instructor who didn't want an airline job, so the fact that they couldn't wait to move on is perhaps a bit of a "tabloid" headline for a general fact.
Exactly. The CFI had been there for several years. The reason most left was for the next rung on the ladder. Some were fired for not being up to scratch.
At this point, yep, there have been job losses. That's bad for everyone concerned.
Very bad. Think of poor Caroline and Adam.
But you have to remember what the aims of the Airport were when it was first built.
The sole aim was for CT to get their aeroplane as close to Newtown as possible. The rest of the public money was just an exercise in grabbing available development funds.
It was there to enhance Mid-Wales' business capabilities and encourage companies to move in. In this regard I remember two ocassions when the Mid Wales Development chartered a BM Dash-7 to fly from BHX to Welshpool with potential investors - that was an entertaining day, and I still have the White Copy of the Loadsheet saying Welshpool to Birmingham as proof!! These aims were never reached because of the lack of agreement between the owner and the operator.
And just which business, apart from CT who are already happy with the airport, owns a company aircraft? None. Perhaps there might be one I don't know about but I'd be suprised if they needed more than 800m and an ILS. Welshpool will NEVER EVER be a viable business airport. Powys is one of the least industrialised, poorest and lightly populated in the country. The LAST thing it needs is a business airport. Putting a dual carriageway to Shrewsbury would be a far better deal. Halfpenny green struggles and thats on the edge of the Nations 2nd city...
I seem to remember that Pool refused to use the Control Tower after that was built unless they got an additional 7 year contract. Yep, it got that petty.
Yes it did. A lot of pettines on all sides. Which was sad.
I don't usually disagree with you, but the comment about sniping was a little bit off. I know who you're thinking about, but the majority of the "commentators" have been entirely justified in their comments.
I wasn't actually thinking about anyone in particular. Its fine by me if we have slightly differing views about this one. Thats allowed. Thats healthy. I acknowledge truths in your view as you do mine.
In the future though, I'd be surprised if this move doesn't yield more jobs for both the airport and, perhaps more importantly in an area of pretty substantial unemployment, more resultant jobs in the local economy.
As I say. I just can't see which business is going to use the place for what purpose. I HOPE it does and I am wrong. Nothing more would I like for Welshpool airport to become a major airfield. I could move home and buy half the High Street for the price of a 2 bedroom flat here!
And that comment about Pool developing the airport into a "thriving facility for the community" is a little bit of poetic licence surely when a vast proportion of the area's PPL holders were driving to Sleap or Shobdon. That's not a great advert is it?!?
60 students a year went through Welshpool. The vast majority rented a room when there and ate out during their course whilst visiting the pub. Lots of people gave "trial lessons" to loved ones - I must have flown half of Montgomeryshire on those! If you fancied a PPL then the cheapest school in the UK was on your doorstep. They had a fleet of 13 singles - and they did very little training at weekends. This meant that you could hire an aircraft on a whim at weekends with no notice even in high summer. That was good. On nice days locals would actually come in to have a cup of tea, slice of cake and sit outside watching the aircraft take off and land. I don't know any locals who went to Shobdon, a few did go to Sleap. I don't really know why.
Anyway, ho hum, as they say....
Yeah, well I wish Bob all the best I really do. I count him as a friend. He was the first person who ever took me airborne. He is a Thoroughly Nice Chap. I do not wish to slag off the changes. I merely seek to mourn the passing of what was a remarkably successful school which people laughed at when it opened.
WWW
Because he is not a particularly easy man to like.
But he was a fair Boss who paid on time.
WWW
But he was a fair Boss who paid on time.
WWW
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WWW is right that Welshpool may never be a golden economic money machine however
1) the chance of the money for a dual carriageway from Shrewsbury being made available and happening in the next 10 years.........
2)Companies base their decisions to invest into a town / area on what the infra-structure ACTUALLY has in place, not in vague promises. Yes, of course there are incentive grants but when that runs out, the business has to work within the facilities around it. I am not suggesting that an airport is a first requirement, but it is one of many factors that help sway a decision
3) If there was a significant facility at W'pool and it only helped to persuade 2 or 3 substantial employers to come to the town, then that would bring millions into the local economy.
I know local business people are most certainly enthusiastic for the development of Welshpool Airport as air travel is actually very cost effective. Much as WWW may caste W'pool as an industrial backwater, there are nevertheless many very significant businesses contributing not only to the local economy, but actually providing high grade services / products to industry, from electronic R&D to several multi million pound companies supplying a very quality demanding components into the Automotive OEMs.
W'pool certainly does need a good airport to help it move forward. What it does not need is negative vibes from those who jest at the value of the High St in comparison to more affluent areas. I daresay WWW did not intend a slur but as a former local with humour like that, he might find locals ain't so friendly to him anymore.
Me....I am not from W'pool, but happen to have invested in the town's industrial base. I don't need longer runways for my use, but I know a large American Corporation, who were
disappointed with W'pool and are now going to base their manufacturing near a Midland Airport. Perhaps they would have anyway, but......given a better airport ??
The thread appears to have been very much me...me ..me, where G A has been concerned. G A is not going to lose an airfield, but if you want to keep the locals happy, give them something that helps bring many jobs to the town rather than a few jobs for the few fun flyers as they perceive it. (They don't necessarily follow that the pilot buzzing over their head 2/3 yrs ago, may well be driving them on holiday to Malaga etc in the next year or two!)
I am a flyer too and I do not want us to lose anymore airfields in UK and be subject increasing bureacratic rules. Therefore, we should face the challenge of regional airports enthusiastically and ensure that our positive views shape their development in a favorable way to GA, rather than talking negatively and saying that they will never be viable. (Not meant to be a go at WWW)
I'm sure the future for GA is good at Welshpool; it will be even better, if Welshpool Airport is more importantly seen as good for the town.
This has strayed from the thread of W'pool, but perhaps it raises another subject that others may wish to discuss.
1) the chance of the money for a dual carriageway from Shrewsbury being made available and happening in the next 10 years.........
2)Companies base their decisions to invest into a town / area on what the infra-structure ACTUALLY has in place, not in vague promises. Yes, of course there are incentive grants but when that runs out, the business has to work within the facilities around it. I am not suggesting that an airport is a first requirement, but it is one of many factors that help sway a decision
3) If there was a significant facility at W'pool and it only helped to persuade 2 or 3 substantial employers to come to the town, then that would bring millions into the local economy.
I know local business people are most certainly enthusiastic for the development of Welshpool Airport as air travel is actually very cost effective. Much as WWW may caste W'pool as an industrial backwater, there are nevertheless many very significant businesses contributing not only to the local economy, but actually providing high grade services / products to industry, from electronic R&D to several multi million pound companies supplying a very quality demanding components into the Automotive OEMs.
W'pool certainly does need a good airport to help it move forward. What it does not need is negative vibes from those who jest at the value of the High St in comparison to more affluent areas. I daresay WWW did not intend a slur but as a former local with humour like that, he might find locals ain't so friendly to him anymore.
Me....I am not from W'pool, but happen to have invested in the town's industrial base. I don't need longer runways for my use, but I know a large American Corporation, who were
disappointed with W'pool and are now going to base their manufacturing near a Midland Airport. Perhaps they would have anyway, but......given a better airport ??
The thread appears to have been very much me...me ..me, where G A has been concerned. G A is not going to lose an airfield, but if you want to keep the locals happy, give them something that helps bring many jobs to the town rather than a few jobs for the few fun flyers as they perceive it. (They don't necessarily follow that the pilot buzzing over their head 2/3 yrs ago, may well be driving them on holiday to Malaga etc in the next year or two!)
I am a flyer too and I do not want us to lose anymore airfields in UK and be subject increasing bureacratic rules. Therefore, we should face the challenge of regional airports enthusiastically and ensure that our positive views shape their development in a favorable way to GA, rather than talking negatively and saying that they will never be viable. (Not meant to be a go at WWW)
I'm sure the future for GA is good at Welshpool; it will be even better, if Welshpool Airport is more importantly seen as good for the town.
This has strayed from the thread of W'pool, but perhaps it raises another subject that others may wish to discuss.
The Original Whirly
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Tony Beynon? Let's see...
He upset a lot of instructors, PPLs, and private owners, but it's all hearsay, so I'll leave them to tell you about it. Many of them are at Sleap, Hawarden, Shobdon, or Liverpool, and wished he'd leave as otherwise they love flying from Welshpool.
But here's what I know personally...
I was having a really hard time learning to fly, and not getting on with my instructor. did he care? I doubt he even noticed. But he was only the owner after all...
Someone else had problems with the same instructor. this guy phoned me, wrote to Tony, wrote to the CAA. As far as I know, nothing was ever done, and this guy gave up flying.
One day I came in with a passenger to tell him I'd just done the "A" check, and not a single light was working. In front of my passenger, he glared at me. "Well, what's the problem; you're not flying at night", was all he said. My passenger wasn't impressed.
For various reasons, Tony ended up doing my check-out on the General Avia F22A. He deliberately set out to scare me, put me down, and similar. After an hour I took my hands off the controls and said: "OK Tony, you've made your point. I can't fly this aeroplane; I need more time. But I'm too stressed out to fly any more, so you take us back before I do something really stupid and kill us both". He roared with laughter, and actually we got on OK after that - don't ask me why.
WWW, he may be a fair boss, though many disagree. But I can't think of much else good to say about him.
He upset a lot of instructors, PPLs, and private owners, but it's all hearsay, so I'll leave them to tell you about it. Many of them are at Sleap, Hawarden, Shobdon, or Liverpool, and wished he'd leave as otherwise they love flying from Welshpool.
But here's what I know personally...
I was having a really hard time learning to fly, and not getting on with my instructor. did he care? I doubt he even noticed. But he was only the owner after all...
Someone else had problems with the same instructor. this guy phoned me, wrote to Tony, wrote to the CAA. As far as I know, nothing was ever done, and this guy gave up flying.
One day I came in with a passenger to tell him I'd just done the "A" check, and not a single light was working. In front of my passenger, he glared at me. "Well, what's the problem; you're not flying at night", was all he said. My passenger wasn't impressed.
For various reasons, Tony ended up doing my check-out on the General Avia F22A. He deliberately set out to scare me, put me down, and similar. After an hour I took my hands off the controls and said: "OK Tony, you've made your point. I can't fly this aeroplane; I need more time. But I'm too stressed out to fly any more, so you take us back before I do something really stupid and kill us both". He roared with laughter, and actually we got on OK after that - don't ask me why.
WWW, he may be a fair boss, though many disagree. But I can't think of much else good to say about him.
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Let's have a heated debate...
Firstly, it's fantastic to see so many views on Welshpool. This to me only means one thing, that we're all happy that the development will be the right thing for the area - whichever way it gets there.
WWW - I'm not having a go, as I know you'll realise.
But your instant dismissal of Welshpool and its industry is, to my mind, a bit unfair. Everyone knows that one of the main reasons for Welshpool's development was CT - they were in a good position to hold the DBRW and the Council over a barrel over the place - but as a result they have committed to the area and are now one of the largest employers in the area.
In my time I can remember charter flights by piston twins and the like bringing business into the area, and likewise taking business people out to meetings. Sure, they weren't GIV's or Challengers, but they were providing a service which wouldn't have been there if the airport hadn't been there.
You know my line of work and you'd be surprised at the volume of charter work that we undertake to Wales - all over. Haverfordwest is one of the most popular business destinations of all places. Why? Because of heavy investment (one of the Objective Funding areas) by the Assembly. For Mid-Wales we have to go to Shawbury - now your dual carriageway would help speed them from there into the heart of Mid-Wales but businesses don't work that way! If the drive from the airport is longer than the flight, then they don't go!
That company in Buttington, Fisher Guage(?), had huge talks with the (at that time) DBRW about increasing the airport to cope with the Business Jets of their American owners. Sadly that coincided with the merging of the DBRW with the WDA - and the Airport became a "promise" - which until now has not happened. The fact that the place hasn't developed for business traffic (and that really was its main aim whatever you might think) is directly related to the operational nature of the place. You honestly think that no development money has been available since 1991?! As Bladeslapper says, Welshpool has a number of highly technological industries. These benefit from the added competitivness that low cost of living can bring, whether you deem that to be exploitation or not, it's a fact.
Also, thanks to developments such as the Assembly (now there's something we can argue about!) there is more money in the pot for such wonders as Air Links in Wales - you only have to look at countries such as Germany to see the value that such services can bring to deprived areas - and a fully serviceable airport is the one thing that would mean Mid-Wales would be excluded. And we've all seen far too much of Mid-Wales being excluded in the past. Think how bloody long it took to get the roundabout!
No El, flying school owners are never popular. Yes, we can all name most of them! OK, Pool brought hotel and beer money investment to the area and I'm sure Moat Farm are saddened that it's closed. But lets go back and think of the people, and the aircraft, that got p*ssed off and left - one big spending golfing King Air operator springs to mind immediately - and he subsequently invested heavily in infrastructure at Sleap and that was all over rent that Pool wanted to charge.
Then they downgraded the fire cover to Special Cat - effectively killing off any hopes of a charter operator in anything other than a Seneca operating. That doesn't sit comfortably with my ideas of encouraging business use.
Pool got 10 years of a bloody good deal at Welshpool. Low ground rent and virtually no operating charges. It's not too difficult to see how they could offer such cheap prices. You can say that the flying school kept 10 people directly and maybe 30 people indirectly employed. CT employ over 100. A longer runway, more business traffic - only one more employer. Who knows.
Yep, people did laugh at the Flying School when it started, but then that's the mentality wherever you go - whether it's the middle of Wales or the middle of London. I can remember during the first Air Race over the phone that this guy was on his way round with his shotgun to polish us all off! - just as the aviation community will argue over what's best for the airport, the local community will argue whether the airport or a green field would be better for the local community. At least we're all agreed on that one.
See that coming over there? That's the future that is...!
WWW - I'm not having a go, as I know you'll realise.
But your instant dismissal of Welshpool and its industry is, to my mind, a bit unfair. Everyone knows that one of the main reasons for Welshpool's development was CT - they were in a good position to hold the DBRW and the Council over a barrel over the place - but as a result they have committed to the area and are now one of the largest employers in the area.
In my time I can remember charter flights by piston twins and the like bringing business into the area, and likewise taking business people out to meetings. Sure, they weren't GIV's or Challengers, but they were providing a service which wouldn't have been there if the airport hadn't been there.
You know my line of work and you'd be surprised at the volume of charter work that we undertake to Wales - all over. Haverfordwest is one of the most popular business destinations of all places. Why? Because of heavy investment (one of the Objective Funding areas) by the Assembly. For Mid-Wales we have to go to Shawbury - now your dual carriageway would help speed them from there into the heart of Mid-Wales but businesses don't work that way! If the drive from the airport is longer than the flight, then they don't go!
That company in Buttington, Fisher Guage(?), had huge talks with the (at that time) DBRW about increasing the airport to cope with the Business Jets of their American owners. Sadly that coincided with the merging of the DBRW with the WDA - and the Airport became a "promise" - which until now has not happened. The fact that the place hasn't developed for business traffic (and that really was its main aim whatever you might think) is directly related to the operational nature of the place. You honestly think that no development money has been available since 1991?! As Bladeslapper says, Welshpool has a number of highly technological industries. These benefit from the added competitivness that low cost of living can bring, whether you deem that to be exploitation or not, it's a fact.
Also, thanks to developments such as the Assembly (now there's something we can argue about!) there is more money in the pot for such wonders as Air Links in Wales - you only have to look at countries such as Germany to see the value that such services can bring to deprived areas - and a fully serviceable airport is the one thing that would mean Mid-Wales would be excluded. And we've all seen far too much of Mid-Wales being excluded in the past. Think how bloody long it took to get the roundabout!
No El, flying school owners are never popular. Yes, we can all name most of them! OK, Pool brought hotel and beer money investment to the area and I'm sure Moat Farm are saddened that it's closed. But lets go back and think of the people, and the aircraft, that got p*ssed off and left - one big spending golfing King Air operator springs to mind immediately - and he subsequently invested heavily in infrastructure at Sleap and that was all over rent that Pool wanted to charge.
Then they downgraded the fire cover to Special Cat - effectively killing off any hopes of a charter operator in anything other than a Seneca operating. That doesn't sit comfortably with my ideas of encouraging business use.
Pool got 10 years of a bloody good deal at Welshpool. Low ground rent and virtually no operating charges. It's not too difficult to see how they could offer such cheap prices. You can say that the flying school kept 10 people directly and maybe 30 people indirectly employed. CT employ over 100. A longer runway, more business traffic - only one more employer. Who knows.
Yep, people did laugh at the Flying School when it started, but then that's the mentality wherever you go - whether it's the middle of Wales or the middle of London. I can remember during the first Air Race over the phone that this guy was on his way round with his shotgun to polish us all off! - just as the aviation community will argue over what's best for the airport, the local community will argue whether the airport or a green field would be better for the local community. At least we're all agreed on that one.
See that coming over there? That's the future that is...!
Sischer Gauge stamp out wheel balancing weights for BMW. Hardly cutting edge. The only other companies moving into the area recently have been packaging companies. Price and Orphin in Netown is closing down. I can't think of a single high tech employer with more than 10 employees in the area other than Control Techniques (my old employer for 3 years).
I just CANNOT see how Welshpool airport being bigger would clinch any business deal for the area.
If it did then I agree - 10 jobs at a flying school lost would be a good deal if it brought 100 jobs to the area.
It seems self evident to me that the WDA DBRW or whatever the same old faces are called this week should invest in high capacity IT links not high capacity aviation links.
The high quality of living available in the area couple with its remoteness suggests you should be looking to get high net worth professionals into the area able to work remotely. Spend some money getting Welshpool, Newtown and Llandrindod a digital fibre optic exchange, microwave datalink and give the area Broadband. THAT might get you a small software house or a legal consulting firm into the area.
In my opinion the focus is too far on large and medium sized employers. They always have the muscle to screw a very good deal out of the council. They also continue to have muscle to get what they want for years to come. How many times have CT threatened to quit the area?!? Loads.
What you want is lots and lots of small businesses who are rooted to the area for better reasons than the best grant aid status. Broadband datalink would help facilitate this much better than another 2000ft of tarmac on the Severn valley.
If ONLY the parties could have agreed to keep the school whilst extending to accomodate increased business useage
Best of both worlds.
If you take a 40 mile arc of Hawarden, Sleap and Shobdon then EGCW really only has a catchment of Newtown, Llandrindod and Welshpool. Thats just not enough GDP to support a business airport in my amateur economists opinion.
Bladeslapper, I am Welshpool born and bred and all my family are there. I will be stumbling up and down that High St all weekend and many of my best mates live on it. I meant no disrespect to the area - I would move back in a shot IF there was any serious aviation there. Which I don't think there ever will be. Unfortunately.
Whirly - you don't need lights to fly day VFR. A strobe unit for a PA38 costs £130. The 45hr PPL course cost <£3000. Some of the aircraft only ever flew day VFR. QED.
EVERYBODY hates flying school owners. TB is no exception. What he did not do was be like one FTO (well known in the business) who took students money whilst mortgaging the aircraft then went bust leaving instructors unpaid and students with useless shares in aircraft owned by banks and lost training funds.
What he did not do was like SFT that was taking large advanced sums of students only days before they went bust.
He paid reasonable money, on time and supplied you with a steady stream of students. As a PPL instructor that is a good deal and anything else is a bonus.
An air race, an aerobatics competition, 300 GA movements a day in summer, 60 PPLs a year, a packed maintainence hangar... all gone with TB.
Lets hope BJ brings it all back plus a couple of Kingairs/BE200/Citations/GulfstreamV's!!
WWW
I just CANNOT see how Welshpool airport being bigger would clinch any business deal for the area.
If it did then I agree - 10 jobs at a flying school lost would be a good deal if it brought 100 jobs to the area.
It seems self evident to me that the WDA DBRW or whatever the same old faces are called this week should invest in high capacity IT links not high capacity aviation links.
The high quality of living available in the area couple with its remoteness suggests you should be looking to get high net worth professionals into the area able to work remotely. Spend some money getting Welshpool, Newtown and Llandrindod a digital fibre optic exchange, microwave datalink and give the area Broadband. THAT might get you a small software house or a legal consulting firm into the area.
In my opinion the focus is too far on large and medium sized employers. They always have the muscle to screw a very good deal out of the council. They also continue to have muscle to get what they want for years to come. How many times have CT threatened to quit the area?!? Loads.
What you want is lots and lots of small businesses who are rooted to the area for better reasons than the best grant aid status. Broadband datalink would help facilitate this much better than another 2000ft of tarmac on the Severn valley.
If ONLY the parties could have agreed to keep the school whilst extending to accomodate increased business useage
Best of both worlds.If you take a 40 mile arc of Hawarden, Sleap and Shobdon then EGCW really only has a catchment of Newtown, Llandrindod and Welshpool. Thats just not enough GDP to support a business airport in my amateur economists opinion.
Bladeslapper, I am Welshpool born and bred and all my family are there. I will be stumbling up and down that High St all weekend and many of my best mates live on it. I meant no disrespect to the area - I would move back in a shot IF there was any serious aviation there. Which I don't think there ever will be. Unfortunately.
Whirly - you don't need lights to fly day VFR. A strobe unit for a PA38 costs £130. The 45hr PPL course cost <£3000. Some of the aircraft only ever flew day VFR. QED.
EVERYBODY hates flying school owners. TB is no exception. What he did not do was be like one FTO (well known in the business) who took students money whilst mortgaging the aircraft then went bust leaving instructors unpaid and students with useless shares in aircraft owned by banks and lost training funds.
What he did not do was like SFT that was taking large advanced sums of students only days before they went bust.
He paid reasonable money, on time and supplied you with a steady stream of students. As a PPL instructor that is a good deal and anything else is a bonus.
An air race, an aerobatics competition, 300 GA movements a day in summer, 60 PPLs a year, a packed maintainence hangar... all gone with TB.
Lets hope BJ brings it all back plus a couple of Kingairs/BE200/Citations/GulfstreamV's!!
WWW
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So much speculation........ so if Pool Aviation is such a great loss to Welshpool, here's a few observations.....
The DBRW provided money to Pool for the development of the airfield on the proviso that 21+ jobs be created within 4/5 years, they never manage to fulfill this requirement, although they did manage to get through over 40 staff in 10 years.
Welshpool / Tony Beynon was the subject of a Wales This Week investigative programme about 3/4 years ago and highlighted a wide range of irregularities regarding Mr Beynon and his business practices, the programme also covered the impounding of the Baron abroad (Holland I believe) under very suspicious circumstances.
Businessess have tried to use the airfield in the past only to be subject to large bills and at times restrictions to use only Pool's maintenance facilities, which at one point resulted in a very unfortunate situation and an aircraft being auctioned.
For those who care to remember Ian Woosnam was also based at Welshpool and only left after ...... well same old story, I'm sure Robin his pilot would be happy to elaborate.
In addition to all of the above in the past there have been two investigations by the CAA (over an 18 month / two year period) prompted by the local then MP with what was I believe 11 counts of safety issues and double figures in witness statements.
As for the comments by those who were "so close on the inside", "AJ" - I actually was when you were still attending Llanfair, I will be happy to make myself known to you next time we meet at Welshpool in order to discuss this further.
The past is the past - there is now a chance for Welshpool to become the sort of safe and friendly environment it was always hoped it would be..............
The DBRW provided money to Pool for the development of the airfield on the proviso that 21+ jobs be created within 4/5 years, they never manage to fulfill this requirement, although they did manage to get through over 40 staff in 10 years.
Welshpool / Tony Beynon was the subject of a Wales This Week investigative programme about 3/4 years ago and highlighted a wide range of irregularities regarding Mr Beynon and his business practices, the programme also covered the impounding of the Baron abroad (Holland I believe) under very suspicious circumstances.
Businessess have tried to use the airfield in the past only to be subject to large bills and at times restrictions to use only Pool's maintenance facilities, which at one point resulted in a very unfortunate situation and an aircraft being auctioned.
For those who care to remember Ian Woosnam was also based at Welshpool and only left after ...... well same old story, I'm sure Robin his pilot would be happy to elaborate.
In addition to all of the above in the past there have been two investigations by the CAA (over an 18 month / two year period) prompted by the local then MP with what was I believe 11 counts of safety issues and double figures in witness statements.
As for the comments by those who were "so close on the inside", "AJ" - I actually was when you were still attending Llanfair, I will be happy to make myself known to you next time we meet at Welshpool in order to discuss this further.
The past is the past - there is now a chance for Welshpool to become the sort of safe and friendly environment it was always hoped it would be..............
Pipes - careful not to post anything that could attract a legal action.
You have me confused with someone else - I only went to Llanfair for dodgy Young Farmer organised barn dance brawls. I am a Soupy born and bred.
I can't get in the least bit excited by Ian Woosnams aircraft and where its based. Sleap is closer to his house anyhow with a much bigger runway. I doubt it being based at Welshpool would have created a single sniff of a local job.
Wales the Week produced a very thin programme in which TB answered all their questions. It was hardly the Cook report.
The DBRW + WDA + Montgomery Council + CT + EU Objective One funding that went into Welshpool airport went into the infrastructure and not into the operating costs of Pool Aviation. 21 jobs is the usual kind of claptrap that gets spouted by all such developments. Safeways was going to employ 130 staff when the planning went through. And they did. For a month or two. And now its half that. Remind me again how many people are employed at Welshpool airport this week?
Similarly any routine investigations by the CAA produced a clean bill of health. Lembit Opik played no role in any investigation to my knowledge and I have written to him today to seek confirmation.
Which businesses have tried to use Pool in the past and faced very high bills? CT, Servern Valley and Sidoli appear to had no problems for many years. What business aviation is at Sleap or Shobdon that might otherwise be at Welshpool? None.
Your post is exactly the kind of sniping that gets my back up and puts me in the curious position of defending TB.
You seem to be an ex-employee. So am I. Some ex-employees are happy, others are bitter. That happens in any business. Any ill feeling on your part should not cloud your judgement. Welshpool was a busy vibrant flying school when Pool Aviation was there. No student got swindled; no instructor went unpaid.
Lets hope it becomes a busy and vibrant airfield once again.
WWW
You have me confused with someone else - I only went to Llanfair for dodgy Young Farmer organised barn dance brawls. I am a Soupy born and bred.
I can't get in the least bit excited by Ian Woosnams aircraft and where its based. Sleap is closer to his house anyhow with a much bigger runway. I doubt it being based at Welshpool would have created a single sniff of a local job.
Wales the Week produced a very thin programme in which TB answered all their questions. It was hardly the Cook report.
The DBRW + WDA + Montgomery Council + CT + EU Objective One funding that went into Welshpool airport went into the infrastructure and not into the operating costs of Pool Aviation. 21 jobs is the usual kind of claptrap that gets spouted by all such developments. Safeways was going to employ 130 staff when the planning went through. And they did. For a month or two. And now its half that. Remind me again how many people are employed at Welshpool airport this week?
Similarly any routine investigations by the CAA produced a clean bill of health. Lembit Opik played no role in any investigation to my knowledge and I have written to him today to seek confirmation.
Which businesses have tried to use Pool in the past and faced very high bills? CT, Servern Valley and Sidoli appear to had no problems for many years. What business aviation is at Sleap or Shobdon that might otherwise be at Welshpool? None.
Your post is exactly the kind of sniping that gets my back up and puts me in the curious position of defending TB.
You seem to be an ex-employee. So am I. Some ex-employees are happy, others are bitter. That happens in any business. Any ill feeling on your part should not cloud your judgement. Welshpool was a busy vibrant flying school when Pool Aviation was there. No student got swindled; no instructor went unpaid.
Lets hope it becomes a busy and vibrant airfield once again.
WWW
Last edited by Wee Weasley Welshman; 1st May 2002 at 13:14.
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Dodgy Young Farmer organised barn dances
Personally, I never had a problem with Dodgy Barn Dances in Llanfair! 
Woosie's aircraft then was a Beech 200 King Air - that excites me, but then most aircraft do! He now owns a Citation. When it was based at Welshpool it provided income to the airport and work, both for locally based aircrew and two part-time ground crew. In any case, he and the aircraft are both now Jersey based.
I don't think that TB answered the WtW allegations in any way. But then depending on which side of this particular argument you are on, you would or would not agree with that anyway. I still remember the video of Vanessa going through the reporters car whilst he was interviewing Tony! Nothing to hide there then... However, I think that is moving away from the discussion which is centred around whether the airport's development without Pool is the way forward.
Yes, the funding you mentioned did go into the infrastructure, but you need to research your facts (made difficult by the various mergers that have happened since, I grant you) into that. You will find interesting things there. EU Objective 1 was not involved at that time though.
21 jobs was entirely feasible based upon the business plans that were submitted back in 1990/1, but this was related to the business side developing. Which, to labour the point somewhat, it didn't.
Your statement regarding the CAA's clean bill of health is another one I would take issue with, but you will need to speak to the CAA about that, it's not for public disemination via this board. The MP in question was Alex Carlile, not Lembit, and he would be happy to discuss the findings with you I'm sure.
There are a number of businesses which I know of who left WPL for the better economies that other airports offered. Although those who never actually made it there are a bit hypothetical, your list of CT, Severn Valley (I could have sworn the PA32 had gone to Shobbers) and Sidoli pretty much covers the based operators? Correct me please. Your assertion that Shobdon and Sleap are not home to any Business Aircraft is unfounded, Shobdon had a jet based there for many years, Sleap is the home to a number of Piston Twins, but a developed Welshpool is a stage on from these in any case and is comparable to Hawarden and Gloster. The aircraft these places attract include Citations I thru VII, Falcon 50s, Hawkers - Hawarden's catchment (Chester) is comparable to that of Mid-Wales (and Oswestry, Shrewsbury etc - bearing in mind that Shawbury isn't too user friendly), Gloster has Cheltenham and Gloucester, but it also has competition from Bristol(s), Birmingham and Cardiff.
What is clear is that Welshpool has been nothing other than a training base for the past 10 years. It was great that people could get cheap licences, but to say that that is a great development is PR spin. A great development would have been one that had allowed training to happen alongside the increased business use. The situation that developed did not allow that.
Defend Pool as much as you want, but what they acheived wasn't anything dramatically wonderful. What they had was exactly the same as all companies which move into the area, apart from the fact that their deal carried on until April this year, i.e. low overheads - face it, they were not paying a market rent for a dedicated facility. Part of their agreement was to provide a business airport - Special Cat Fire Cover, how did that work then?
WWW, you know I worked there at the very beginning. I hold some minor bitterness about Pool, mainly from being tarred with a brush which wasn't there or, if it had been, wasn't fair. But overall, I'd like to think that my career has led me into more logical thought than that which I had when I was in school. The area needs investment and the only way that is going to happen is by getting investors to move in. A flying school on its own would not assist that. A business airport would.
Woosie's aircraft then was a Beech 200 King Air - that excites me, but then most aircraft do! He now owns a Citation. When it was based at Welshpool it provided income to the airport and work, both for locally based aircrew and two part-time ground crew. In any case, he and the aircraft are both now Jersey based.
I don't think that TB answered the WtW allegations in any way. But then depending on which side of this particular argument you are on, you would or would not agree with that anyway. I still remember the video of Vanessa going through the reporters car whilst he was interviewing Tony! Nothing to hide there then... However, I think that is moving away from the discussion which is centred around whether the airport's development without Pool is the way forward.
Yes, the funding you mentioned did go into the infrastructure, but you need to research your facts (made difficult by the various mergers that have happened since, I grant you) into that. You will find interesting things there. EU Objective 1 was not involved at that time though.
21 jobs was entirely feasible based upon the business plans that were submitted back in 1990/1, but this was related to the business side developing. Which, to labour the point somewhat, it didn't.
Your statement regarding the CAA's clean bill of health is another one I would take issue with, but you will need to speak to the CAA about that, it's not for public disemination via this board. The MP in question was Alex Carlile, not Lembit, and he would be happy to discuss the findings with you I'm sure.
There are a number of businesses which I know of who left WPL for the better economies that other airports offered. Although those who never actually made it there are a bit hypothetical, your list of CT, Severn Valley (I could have sworn the PA32 had gone to Shobbers) and Sidoli pretty much covers the based operators? Correct me please. Your assertion that Shobdon and Sleap are not home to any Business Aircraft is unfounded, Shobdon had a jet based there for many years, Sleap is the home to a number of Piston Twins, but a developed Welshpool is a stage on from these in any case and is comparable to Hawarden and Gloster. The aircraft these places attract include Citations I thru VII, Falcon 50s, Hawkers - Hawarden's catchment (Chester) is comparable to that of Mid-Wales (and Oswestry, Shrewsbury etc - bearing in mind that Shawbury isn't too user friendly), Gloster has Cheltenham and Gloucester, but it also has competition from Bristol(s), Birmingham and Cardiff.
What is clear is that Welshpool has been nothing other than a training base for the past 10 years. It was great that people could get cheap licences, but to say that that is a great development is PR spin. A great development would have been one that had allowed training to happen alongside the increased business use. The situation that developed did not allow that.
Defend Pool as much as you want, but what they acheived wasn't anything dramatically wonderful. What they had was exactly the same as all companies which move into the area, apart from the fact that their deal carried on until April this year, i.e. low overheads - face it, they were not paying a market rent for a dedicated facility. Part of their agreement was to provide a business airport - Special Cat Fire Cover, how did that work then?
WWW, you know I worked there at the very beginning. I hold some minor bitterness about Pool, mainly from being tarred with a brush which wasn't there or, if it had been, wasn't fair. But overall, I'd like to think that my career has led me into more logical thought than that which I had when I was in school. The area needs investment and the only way that is going to happen is by getting investors to move in. A flying school on its own would not assist that. A business airport would.
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WWW - My apologies Welshpool not Llanfair.
As far as I was aware I was not generally talking about your overall personal opinions on any of this (ref your comments on Ian Woosnam and his aircraft, although he was looking to move at the time to Berriew in order to be near his aircraft, a fact that may not have produced any further jobs directly but at that time it wasn't doing the airfield any harm either, in fact quite the contrary!).
Wales this Week was hardly a "thin" programme, granted TB fielded the questions reasonably well, but I don't remember saying he didn't have the gift of the gab, the overall content was extremely interesting.
I totally agree that various "claptrap" does get discussed regarding the DBRW, WDA funding etc. etc., however this particular claptrap came directly from Mrs Beynon!!!!!!!!!!!
I did say "at the time MP" which was Alex Carlisle MP QC who was also looking to raise questions in the house regarding Welshpool......that is also "first hand" information.
As for other businesses potential, talk to the previous business development people of DBRW, WDA and the stone walls they came up against.
My post may have got your back up, that was not/nor is my intention, but for your strength of opinion (particularly as your role as a moderator), I merely wished to point out that not only are there are two sides to every story, but that you were not there when a number of the initial problems occured, and as has been said in earlier postings we are all entitled to our opinion....... and, some of us (not excluding yourself) are also in possession (first hand) of certain facts, and documented proof.
I would not need to be an ex-employee to know and be able to substantiate my comments, I have no ill feelings, my Father is ex RAF and I have been an aviation enthusiast almost since I could walk, an airfield in Welshpool was a dream come true.
I am still (as I have said previously) extremely pleased at last to see that Justice has been done, and Welshpool returned to the owner, I for one wish Mid Wales Airfield evey success.
As far as I was aware I was not generally talking about your overall personal opinions on any of this (ref your comments on Ian Woosnam and his aircraft, although he was looking to move at the time to Berriew in order to be near his aircraft, a fact that may not have produced any further jobs directly but at that time it wasn't doing the airfield any harm either, in fact quite the contrary!).
Wales this Week was hardly a "thin" programme, granted TB fielded the questions reasonably well, but I don't remember saying he didn't have the gift of the gab, the overall content was extremely interesting.
I totally agree that various "claptrap" does get discussed regarding the DBRW, WDA funding etc. etc., however this particular claptrap came directly from Mrs Beynon!!!!!!!!!!!
I did say "at the time MP" which was Alex Carlisle MP QC who was also looking to raise questions in the house regarding Welshpool......that is also "first hand" information.
As for other businesses potential, talk to the previous business development people of DBRW, WDA and the stone walls they came up against.
My post may have got your back up, that was not/nor is my intention, but for your strength of opinion (particularly as your role as a moderator), I merely wished to point out that not only are there are two sides to every story, but that you were not there when a number of the initial problems occured, and as has been said in earlier postings we are all entitled to our opinion....... and, some of us (not excluding yourself) are also in possession (first hand) of certain facts, and documented proof.
I would not need to be an ex-employee to know and be able to substantiate my comments, I have no ill feelings, my Father is ex RAF and I have been an aviation enthusiast almost since I could walk, an airfield in Welshpool was a dream come true.
I am still (as I have said previously) extremely pleased at last to see that Justice has been done, and Welshpool returned to the owner, I for one wish Mid Wales Airfield evey success.
Fair enough. I guess thats all the main views extolled quite well.
There is no gain in further raking over the coals. I shall drop in EGCW this weekend and hopefully chew the fat with Bob.
I could always be his 'Deep Throat' source inside the low cost airline world... Daifly - would you be Base Ops Manager to half a dozen 737's...?!?!
WWW
There is no gain in further raking over the coals. I shall drop in EGCW this weekend and hopefully chew the fat with Bob.
I could always be his 'Deep Throat' source inside the low cost airline world... Daifly - would you be Base Ops Manager to half a dozen 737's...?!?!
WWW
Deep Throat...?
