Flying a Smaller Airplane
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Flying a Smaller Airplane
I am debating between buying a 152 and instructing in it and going down the airline route. The latter is almost entirely unacceptable to me because I do not want to be away from my family. I am reexamining what I love about aviation and flying and why I want to do it.
As an aviation fanatic who has been so his entire life, I am nearly horny when I see a 747 taking off. But why, I am asking myself, am I more excited by a 747 than a 152? If I, hypothetically, were paid the same to fly both airplanes and could be close to home; would I be equally as happy? Please give me your answer to that question. For anyone who has done it, is flying a large airliner any more fun than flying a light aircraft?
One thing that has become apparent to me is that, with the increasing automation or aircraft, flying an airliner seems to have become more the role of a computer operator than an aviator. Your thoughts?
As an aviation fanatic who has been so his entire life, I am nearly horny when I see a 747 taking off. But why, I am asking myself, am I more excited by a 747 than a 152? If I, hypothetically, were paid the same to fly both airplanes and could be close to home; would I be equally as happy? Please give me your answer to that question. For anyone who has done it, is flying a large airliner any more fun than flying a light aircraft?
One thing that has become apparent to me is that, with the increasing automation or aircraft, flying an airliner seems to have become more the role of a computer operator than an aviator. Your thoughts?
Yes, you are right.
However since you are from Seattle I suspect that you are an Executive from Boeing Aircraft, trying to sneakily learn about flying from us poor pilots, so that you can produce even better jets.
If you wish to seek my advice, then feel free to consult me for my usual fee
However since you are from Seattle I suspect that you are an Executive from Boeing Aircraft, trying to sneakily learn about flying from us poor pilots, so that you can produce even better jets.
If you wish to seek my advice, then feel free to consult me for my usual fee
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I've flown both...the cessna 152 is a true piece of shirt! ;-)
at least get a piper warrior/archer if you are going to teach and be comfortable.
there is still plenty for an aviator to do...yes you can use the automation, but you can still think for yourself.
as to staying near family...forget airline flying then.
the best plane I ever flew was an airliner...everything else was a stepping stone.
maybe you should forget aviation all together and just make lots of money so you can afford your own plane...and something better than a Cessna 152.
at least get a piper warrior/archer if you are going to teach and be comfortable.
there is still plenty for an aviator to do...yes you can use the automation, but you can still think for yourself.
as to staying near family...forget airline flying then.
the best plane I ever flew was an airliner...everything else was a stepping stone.
maybe you should forget aviation all together and just make lots of money so you can afford your own plane...and something better than a Cessna 152.
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Having owned a C 150 for 25 years, I can say that they are slightly superior to the 152. Buy what you need for the job you want to do. You can always rent bigger (right up to a 747 I suppose) for those occasional larger needs.
I relesh the fact that I fly the 150 when ever I want, and never consider the operating cost - it's about the same as my VW. My other aircraft is a Lycoming powered 100LL burner, and filling it is financially noticable. I used to fly a 182RG a lot, and the operating costs were difficult to manage.
Like any aircraft, the 150/152 is a compromise, but excellent one for what is does, at the cost. It is very easily repaired if damaged, and cheap to insure. The new inspection requirements from Cessna are going to affect the commercial use of these older aircraft, but that should make them even more affordable to private users.
There was mention of the Piper PA-28 series. Delightful aircraft to fly, I've flown many of them - but - try to buy parts! Last year, I had to approve a very costly repair to a Piper, as Piper themselves would not provide parts. The reapir (had Piper suppied the required part) would have cost $1000 or so. The owner paid 15 times that. I quote what was said to me by the Piper Tech Rep during the repair planning:
"Sir, that's a 40 year old aircraft and we have not seen it is 40 years, we don't want it in the air any more." My reply was a very suprised "Oh!".
Another Piper (Warrior) owner contacted me for approval for a hail damage alloawnce on the aircraft. Piper would not allow the hail damage, and there was no repair - again, Piper's effectively trying to ground the aircraft. That one I did approve, and it flies on like a golf ball.
I have since been asked to approve a repair for a Piper Arrow with 1/8 of a square inch of corrosion on the wing spar in the main wheel bay. The extruded spar is not economically repairable, and a replacement part is not available - the whole airframe is now grounded permanently, and will be parted out.
So, I'm not a legacy Piper fan any more. Nice to fly, but I would never own one - too many extruded and specially formed parts, and no supply. Cessnas, on the other hand are mostly comprized of folded sheet metal parts, so a well equipped sheet metal shop has a chance of making many of the parts, including primary structural ones, and returning a damaged aircraft to service. As the owner, that's vital to you!
If you can afford a brand new aircraft, well then, you have lots of choice, and none of this is an issue - for now.....
As for "fun", would you rather fly when you want, and where you want, and NOT when you don't want to? Or would you rather fly when and where you're told, and always with a second crew member. No straying from the route, no stopping off for an inpromptu lunch along the way. I commute to work in the planes (well, one is a "Commuter"), so I fly most days, but on my terms....
there are many worthy aircrat types, but you can't beat the ease of service of the world's most common aircraft....
I relesh the fact that I fly the 150 when ever I want, and never consider the operating cost - it's about the same as my VW. My other aircraft is a Lycoming powered 100LL burner, and filling it is financially noticable. I used to fly a 182RG a lot, and the operating costs were difficult to manage.
Like any aircraft, the 150/152 is a compromise, but excellent one for what is does, at the cost. It is very easily repaired if damaged, and cheap to insure. The new inspection requirements from Cessna are going to affect the commercial use of these older aircraft, but that should make them even more affordable to private users.
There was mention of the Piper PA-28 series. Delightful aircraft to fly, I've flown many of them - but - try to buy parts! Last year, I had to approve a very costly repair to a Piper, as Piper themselves would not provide parts. The reapir (had Piper suppied the required part) would have cost $1000 or so. The owner paid 15 times that. I quote what was said to me by the Piper Tech Rep during the repair planning:
"Sir, that's a 40 year old aircraft and we have not seen it is 40 years, we don't want it in the air any more." My reply was a very suprised "Oh!".
Another Piper (Warrior) owner contacted me for approval for a hail damage alloawnce on the aircraft. Piper would not allow the hail damage, and there was no repair - again, Piper's effectively trying to ground the aircraft. That one I did approve, and it flies on like a golf ball.
I have since been asked to approve a repair for a Piper Arrow with 1/8 of a square inch of corrosion on the wing spar in the main wheel bay. The extruded spar is not economically repairable, and a replacement part is not available - the whole airframe is now grounded permanently, and will be parted out.
So, I'm not a legacy Piper fan any more. Nice to fly, but I would never own one - too many extruded and specially formed parts, and no supply. Cessnas, on the other hand are mostly comprized of folded sheet metal parts, so a well equipped sheet metal shop has a chance of making many of the parts, including primary structural ones, and returning a damaged aircraft to service. As the owner, that's vital to you!
If you can afford a brand new aircraft, well then, you have lots of choice, and none of this is an issue - for now.....
As for "fun", would you rather fly when you want, and where you want, and NOT when you don't want to? Or would you rather fly when and where you're told, and always with a second crew member. No straying from the route, no stopping off for an inpromptu lunch along the way. I commute to work in the planes (well, one is a "Commuter"), so I fly most days, but on my terms....
there are many worthy aircrat types, but you can't beat the ease of service of the world's most common aircraft....
Pilot-DAR is the world's biggest C150 fan, but he has some valid points.
Airline flying pays better, but treats people incredibly badly and you will spend a great deal of time away from home.
Little aeroplane instruction is fun, gives a stable lifestyle, but pays poorly.
But, look at the genuinely modern aeroplanes out there - in the USA the various LSA products in particular, for nice, inexpensive(ish), supportable aeroplanes that will give far more pleasure than a C152 which is a very dull, elderly, cramped little aeroplane (albeit an excellent trainer).
On the other hand, if you are genuinely getting a sexual thrill out of a 747 take-off, you might want to consider seeking psychiatric help. It's thrilling, but there are limits!
But don't forget that there are many jobs in aviation, and many ways to do a lot of flying that do not require you to be an airline pilot or flying instructor. I've just had a great week flying a 4 seat Grumman around Scotland - it's not my job, but it got me to a lot of meetings very efficiently, and returned me to my family several days faster than any other form of transport would have done.
In the USA there are jobs within FBOs, or opportunities to run FBOs, at any airport that are full time, around aeroplanes, with significant flying opportunities - and you get to sleep in your own bed each night. The money may never be great, but you can get a lot of satisfaction out of that sort of lifestyle.
That said an unwillingness to be away from your original home, or an unwillingness to relocate your family, will limit all and any career you might follow. Fair enough, if your family and location are most important to you, that's a legitimate decision and I'd respect you for it - just accept that there will be losses and compromises elsewhere.
G
Airline flying pays better, but treats people incredibly badly and you will spend a great deal of time away from home.
Little aeroplane instruction is fun, gives a stable lifestyle, but pays poorly.
But, look at the genuinely modern aeroplanes out there - in the USA the various LSA products in particular, for nice, inexpensive(ish), supportable aeroplanes that will give far more pleasure than a C152 which is a very dull, elderly, cramped little aeroplane (albeit an excellent trainer).
On the other hand, if you are genuinely getting a sexual thrill out of a 747 take-off, you might want to consider seeking psychiatric help. It's thrilling, but there are limits!
But don't forget that there are many jobs in aviation, and many ways to do a lot of flying that do not require you to be an airline pilot or flying instructor. I've just had a great week flying a 4 seat Grumman around Scotland - it's not my job, but it got me to a lot of meetings very efficiently, and returned me to my family several days faster than any other form of transport would have done.
In the USA there are jobs within FBOs, or opportunities to run FBOs, at any airport that are full time, around aeroplanes, with significant flying opportunities - and you get to sleep in your own bed each night. The money may never be great, but you can get a lot of satisfaction out of that sort of lifestyle.
That said an unwillingness to be away from your original home, or an unwillingness to relocate your family, will limit all and any career you might follow. Fair enough, if your family and location are most important to you, that's a legitimate decision and I'd respect you for it - just accept that there will be losses and compromises elsewhere.
G
You are so lucky to live in the USA. If its fun flying you want then try and get hold of Dick Starks books about the Kansas City Dawn Patrol. These guys built there own WW1 replicas on a shoestring budget and fly them around at various shows etc. Take off, mock dogfight with fake guns and smoke and then land back at their small strip for BBQ and beers. To me this is what fun flying is all about but I suppose everybody is different.
It can be done here in the UK and I am in the planning stages of building my own WW1 replica but you guys over there can do it a lot easier/cheaper than we can.
Isn't there a chance of getting a floatplane job where you are or something similar? I would have thought you were in one of the best places to get a 9-5 type of flying job.
It can be done here in the UK and I am in the planning stages of building my own WW1 replica but you guys over there can do it a lot easier/cheaper than we can.
Isn't there a chance of getting a floatplane job where you are or something similar? I would have thought you were in one of the best places to get a 9-5 type of flying job.
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As an aviation fanatic who has been so his entire life, I am nearly horny when I see a 747 taking off. But why, I am asking myself, am I more excited by a 747 than a 152? If I, hypothetically, were paid the same to fly both airplanes and could be close to home; would I be equally as happy? Please give me your answer to that question. For anyone who has done it, is flying a large airliner any more fun than flying a light aircraft?
He looked up and saw a sleek fast retractable zooming overhead!
"If only I could fly one of those I would be truly happy"
The Guy in the Sleek fast retractable looked up and saw a twin turboprop above!
"If only I could fly one of those I would be truly happy"
The Guy in the turboprop looked up and saw a business jet!
"If only I could fly one of those I would be truly happy"
The Biz jet pilot looked up and saw Concorde!
"If only I could fly one of those I would be truly happy!
The grey haired Concorde pilot looked way down and could see a speck of a yellow piper Cub!
If only I could fly one of those low and slow down amongst the hills and out of a private strip I would be truly happy!!
You need to identify the lifestyle you want and fit aviation into that not fit your life into aviation.
Now a Husky out of your own strip? Fire it up on a sunny morning??
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Aug 2012 at 08:13.
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I use the airline flying to pay for the rest of it. Aeros in a Yak, touring in a C182 or Warrior with Mrs HF. The best of both worlds.
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Listen, guys, Patrick Winter, age 21, of Seattle Washington, is clearly more interested in sex and family than in flying. Quite right, too.
Patrick, me old son, get yourself a qualification as an aircraft engineer. Or an apprenticeship at Boeing. Go and visit your local Seaplane club, talk to the seaplane pilots. Visit a gliding club, if there is one. Don't try to earn money flying, that way you end up as a bus driver, trying to chat up the Cabin Crew when desperate, and if you have a family back in Seattle, they'll know, you end up divorced anyway and only get to see your kids if you are lucky in the settlement.
I bet the divorce rate for airline pilots considerably exceeds that of any other profession. Choices made now at 21? males, in my experience, don't reach maturity until 30, at best.
Old Granny Glider Pilot
Patrick, me old son, get yourself a qualification as an aircraft engineer. Or an apprenticeship at Boeing. Go and visit your local Seaplane club, talk to the seaplane pilots. Visit a gliding club, if there is one. Don't try to earn money flying, that way you end up as a bus driver, trying to chat up the Cabin Crew when desperate, and if you have a family back in Seattle, they'll know, you end up divorced anyway and only get to see your kids if you are lucky in the settlement.
I bet the divorce rate for airline pilots considerably exceeds that of any other profession. Choices made now at 21? males, in my experience, don't reach maturity until 30, at best.
Old Granny Glider Pilot
Become an ATCO, then you can get paid for the thrill of seeing 747s take-off, use the money to fly for fun AND get home to the Mrs at the end of the day!
Last edited by Dan Dare; 7th Aug 2012 at 08:49.
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What Pace said.
"Happiness" with aviation is a more broad concept than it appears. The fit of the flying into your life is vital for happiness. The Concorde pilot looks down at the Cub, and longs to be able to get in whenever he wants, put $30 worth of fuel in, and bimble around for an hour. Instead he [was] flying an aircraft which takes immense effort and co-ordination to get airborne, and he is just a cog in the wheel. Personally, I'm not happy being a cog, I'd rather be a little wheel all on my own.
I constantly remind myself how incredibly lucky to fly with the freedom and economy I do. Appreciation of that luck makes me happy.
Genghis is a C-150 expert, who has enough experience in "new" types, which seem to not have found their way en mass to Canada yet, that his points are valid. I'm confident that there are other LSA types out there which compete well with a 150, though I would expect a much higher starting price. Genghis flies a delightful legacy type, which would also make me happy....
Aircraft, being very mobile, take you away from home lots. It's up to you to assure that you're on the one which returns you at the frequency you need - or they'll keep you away for months! Accepting a few week long trips a year, my planes have me home every night.
Look more deeply into the various aviation jobs, and look past the glamourous side, to see what you have to give up to be in each.
"Happiness" with aviation is a more broad concept than it appears. The fit of the flying into your life is vital for happiness. The Concorde pilot looks down at the Cub, and longs to be able to get in whenever he wants, put $30 worth of fuel in, and bimble around for an hour. Instead he [was] flying an aircraft which takes immense effort and co-ordination to get airborne, and he is just a cog in the wheel. Personally, I'm not happy being a cog, I'd rather be a little wheel all on my own.
I constantly remind myself how incredibly lucky to fly with the freedom and economy I do. Appreciation of that luck makes me happy.
Genghis is a C-150 expert, who has enough experience in "new" types, which seem to not have found their way en mass to Canada yet, that his points are valid. I'm confident that there are other LSA types out there which compete well with a 150, though I would expect a much higher starting price. Genghis flies a delightful legacy type, which would also make me happy....
Aircraft, being very mobile, take you away from home lots. It's up to you to assure that you're on the one which returns you at the frequency you need - or they'll keep you away for months! Accepting a few week long trips a year, my planes have me home every night.
Look more deeply into the various aviation jobs, and look past the glamourous side, to see what you have to give up to be in each.
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Going back to the original post, the question was asked:-
There is NO doubt that for me that it would be instructing, preferably in something a bit more interesting than the Cessna, and I do that in my spare time, but then I have never got excited over flying the big stuff, indeed, only moved into Airline flying when I looked at my pay packet after many happy years flying light aircraft!
My ideal would probably be a half roster on the big stuff and more time flying the light aircraft like Bulldog/Extra/RV and Moth that I only fly occasionally ATM.
If I, hypothetically, were paid the same to fly both airplanes and could be close to home; would I be equally as happy?
My ideal would probably be a half roster on the big stuff and more time flying the light aircraft like Bulldog/Extra/RV and Moth that I only fly occasionally ATM.
Last edited by foxmoth; 7th Aug 2012 at 15:28.
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I've come to know a lot of pilots that instruct, and most of them haven't done basic circuits in decades. A girl that lives a couple of streets down does Cirrus specific training, both initial and insurance qualifying. She also picks up and ferries Cirrii. Another one is an Aerostar and MU-2 instructor and does the insurance company approved initial training. A third one delivers singles and twins all over the US/Canada/Mexico. He's always busy, charges flat fee of $500/day + expenses for all ferries. A fourth one is a DPE (examiner in the UK) and he's got checkrides almost every day at $600/pop...
So, depending on how you specialise, you can certainly make a more than decent living doing instruction, without ever having to beat out circuits in a Cessna.
So, depending on how you specialise, you can certainly make a more than decent living doing instruction, without ever having to beat out circuits in a Cessna.
The 3 stages of a commercial pilots life.
Stage 1: You chase the tin (bigger/faster/sexier airplanes)
Stage 2: You chase the money
Stage 3: You chase a desirable life style
I am firmly and irrevocably in stage 3
Stage 1: You chase the tin (bigger/faster/sexier airplanes)
Stage 2: You chase the money
Stage 3: You chase a desirable life style
I am firmly and irrevocably in stage 3
