France and Pontoise
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France and Pontoise
I'm planning to fly to Pontoise this weekend- hopefully VFR.
I'm pretty experienced with flying to LFAT but haven't gone much further inland. A couple of questions:
When I cross into the French FIR, who do I speak to? Can I ask for a "Flight Information Service" from Paris North?
Also, I'll be crossing an area between Beauvais and Rouen. Will Paris Info hand me over to either of them or will I have to request that?
Given the Atlas joys, I'll file my return through Afpex before I leave. Does that suffice or do I have to use Olivia?
Finally- any tips about Pontoise? What's the best way to get into Paris?
Thanks for any advice!
I'm pretty experienced with flying to LFAT but haven't gone much further inland. A couple of questions:
When I cross into the French FIR, who do I speak to? Can I ask for a "Flight Information Service" from Paris North?
Also, I'll be crossing an area between Beauvais and Rouen. Will Paris Info hand me over to either of them or will I have to request that?
Given the Atlas joys, I'll file my return through Afpex before I leave. Does that suffice or do I have to use Olivia?
Finally- any tips about Pontoise? What's the best way to get into Paris?
Thanks for any advice!
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I usually fly in there IFR so maybe someone else can advise on VFR flights?
As for the airfield they are all very friendly and your best way in is on the train from Pontoise which itself is a taxi ride from the airfield.
Otherwise if your cash rich a taxi will take you all the way in.
Of all the Parisienne airfields Pontoise is probably the easiest airspace wise.
Pace
As for the airfield they are all very friendly and your best way in is on the train from Pontoise which itself is a taxi ride from the airfield.
Otherwise if your cash rich a taxi will take you all the way in.
Of all the Parisienne airfields Pontoise is probably the easiest airspace wise.
Pace
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You are very unlikely to get any service out of Paris North. I don't know your intended route but if you are transiting towards L2K for a short crossing you will get a good service from Lille and then direct to Pointoise or Beauvais.
You will get a traffic service from both or a basic service as you wish.
You dont say where you are coming from and whether you are transiting Olympic airspace, but obviously if no transit is involved as usual you just need to file a FP through any of the the usual FPing services. No "slots" are required and normally the plan can be filed and accepted as short as half an hour before the flight for VFR. Obviously if your airport is operating international slots during the Games then you will know that and proceed accordingly.
Personally I would never go to Pointoise for Paris. It is a pain to get into the City (by any means). I always recommend Lognes and have had a number of pilots who were thinking Pointoise or had been to Pointoise before, thank me for the suggestion. I never know why Lognes is not considered more often. Its really friendly and geared to the lighter end of GA. Its on the direct railtrack to Guard du Nord; you can walk to the station or a very short taxi ride and the trains are very regular. You do need to think about fuel as its fuel card or cash and you also need to think about the airspace under Charle de G but that's easy just stay below 1,000 feet inbound. I think Lognes is still Customs by arrangement but if not a quick stop at Lille is a good bet (or L2K) - Lille is cheaper if you are saving pennies and adds a little "big airport" experience (just say it is a training flight and / or you are annexed to a flying club and its about 12E.
Enjoy.
PS - there is a clean and cheap hotel at Lognes airport and a better selection very close and a good restaurant. Lognes is a bit of a dive but you cant have everything.
PPS - Pointoise is fine, but if you are going to go to Paris I would strongly recommend giving it a miss!
You will get a traffic service from both or a basic service as you wish.
You dont say where you are coming from and whether you are transiting Olympic airspace, but obviously if no transit is involved as usual you just need to file a FP through any of the the usual FPing services. No "slots" are required and normally the plan can be filed and accepted as short as half an hour before the flight for VFR. Obviously if your airport is operating international slots during the Games then you will know that and proceed accordingly.
Personally I would never go to Pointoise for Paris. It is a pain to get into the City (by any means). I always recommend Lognes and have had a number of pilots who were thinking Pointoise or had been to Pointoise before, thank me for the suggestion. I never know why Lognes is not considered more often. Its really friendly and geared to the lighter end of GA. Its on the direct railtrack to Guard du Nord; you can walk to the station or a very short taxi ride and the trains are very regular. You do need to think about fuel as its fuel card or cash and you also need to think about the airspace under Charle de G but that's easy just stay below 1,000 feet inbound. I think Lognes is still Customs by arrangement but if not a quick stop at Lille is a good bet (or L2K) - Lille is cheaper if you are saving pennies and adds a little "big airport" experience (just say it is a training flight and / or you are annexed to a flying club and its about 12E.
Enjoy.
PS - there is a clean and cheap hotel at Lognes airport and a better selection very close and a good restaurant. Lognes is a bit of a dive but you cant have everything.
PPS - Pointoise is fine, but if you are going to go to Paris I would strongly recommend giving it a miss!
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PPPS
Just checked the AIP for Lognes in case it is any help and they no longer indicate customs even by arrangement so a quick stop en route will be needed. The AIP does indicate credit cards but I would check by ' phone before to be sure.
Just checked the AIP for Lognes in case it is any help and they no longer indicate customs even by arrangement so a quick stop en route will be needed. The AIP does indicate credit cards but I would check by ' phone before to be sure.
According to Navigeo (Navigeo - Consultation du terrain LFPL - Lognes Emerainville) it is cash or cheque or the Total card.
Also says the R/T is French only.
Also says the R/T is French only.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 6th Aug 2012 at 21:08.
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According to the AIP it's French only outside ATC hours. Indeed, every time I have been there during ATC hours they have spoken perfect English.
Incidently, it's a 30/35 minute walk to the station so not a good idea if you are carrying much luggage.
Incidently, it's a 30/35 minute walk to the station so not a good idea if you are carrying much luggage.
Last edited by Jodelman; 6th Aug 2012 at 22:25.
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No more Customs at Pontoise so it's a no-go from/to the UK, on a direct flight.
Incredibly stupid of the French to do that, and all the others
Not that Pontoise was much good for Paris anyway - it's a long way. Probably like Biggin Hill for "London"
Incredibly stupid of the French to do that, and all the others
Not that Pontoise was much good for Paris anyway - it's a long way. Probably like Biggin Hill for "London"
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Always English for me at Lognes and very good English to. Not that French is too much of a problem.
Well the AIP definitely says credit cards but as I said I would check - or better still fill up before leaving or at L2K or Lille. (both bowser) - its pumps at Lognes. Even better still depending where you are coming from full tanks should comfortably get you there and back - its not far.
Yes it is a reasonable walk to the station and not particularly scenic - a taxi is much better but dont try and get a taxi around lunch time!
Do let us know what you decide to do please.
Jan - never believe the AIP, much better to hear from those who have been.
Well the AIP definitely says credit cards but as I said I would check - or better still fill up before leaving or at L2K or Lille. (both bowser) - its pumps at Lognes. Even better still depending where you are coming from full tanks should comfortably get you there and back - its not far.
Yes it is a reasonable walk to the station and not particularly scenic - a taxi is much better but dont try and get a taxi around lunch time!
Do let us know what you decide to do please.
Jan - never believe the AIP, much better to hear from those who have been.
never believe the AIP, much better to hear from those who have been
I thought navigeo.fr a fair compromise, but if I were to fly there myself I'd still write e-mail a week or so before, and call them the day before the flight if the mail got no answer.
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The last two times I have been to Paris, I have flown direct from Biggin to Toussus. Very short taxi to station then quick train to Paris or very close to Versailles if you want to visit.
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Thanks for all the replies. it's a shame that Pontoise has lost its Douanes but it was a bit far out.
Lognes looks good but it's the wrong side of Paris for me (I'll be routing SFD-DPE) so it's a bit of a detour.
I like the sound of Toussus but the airspace around there looks an absolute nightmare. Any tips on routing and heights if I went there?
Lognes looks good but it's the wrong side of Paris for me (I'll be routing SFD-DPE) so it's a bit of a detour.
I like the sound of Toussus but the airspace around there looks an absolute nightmare. Any tips on routing and heights if I went there?
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I haven't been to Toussus for a couple of years but I seem to remember it wasn't much of an issue as long as you stayed below the Paris TMA which is pretty clear from the charts. There is a NDB and VOR near the VRPs and so it's fairly easy to route in (and out).
The customs situation around Paris is very confused at present with EU documentation having Lognes listed as customs port of entry but neither Pontoise nor Toussus. I'm not sure what documentation I'd rely on and it's questionable whether a change of status would appear in NOTAMs, so best contact them direct I should think.
The customs situation around Paris is very confused at present with EU documentation having Lognes listed as customs port of entry but neither Pontoise nor Toussus. I'm not sure what documentation I'd rely on and it's questionable whether a change of status would appear in NOTAMs, so best contact them direct I should think.
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Toussus has also lost Customs.
Regarding getting info and where from: my view is that "anywhere" is OK for getting contact details for phone, fax, email etc and actually googling for the airport website is the best way
For actual information, always contact the airport directly.
The exceptions to the above are
- where the airport is a big H24 one, e.g. Prague, in which case you just get airport notams, file and go, and take any mandatory handling on the chin
- where you are absolutely desperate to go there and are willing (and able, in terms of fuel etc) to take a chance on being diverted elsewhere when you turn up
- in Greece, airports routinely notam operational details (opening hours etc) because everybody knows their AIP is crap and nobody reads it (it wasn't online till a few months ago), but then I find one can always find somebody who speaks English
For me, generally, no direct contact = no flying there (exception: a local pilot known to me has phoned them up and got all the info ).
Regarding getting info and where from: my view is that "anywhere" is OK for getting contact details for phone, fax, email etc and actually googling for the airport website is the best way
For actual information, always contact the airport directly.
The exceptions to the above are
- where the airport is a big H24 one, e.g. Prague, in which case you just get airport notams, file and go, and take any mandatory handling on the chin
- where you are absolutely desperate to go there and are willing (and able, in terms of fuel etc) to take a chance on being diverted elsewhere when you turn up
- in Greece, airports routinely notam operational details (opening hours etc) because everybody knows their AIP is crap and nobody reads it (it wasn't online till a few months ago), but then I find one can always find somebody who speaks English
For me, generally, no direct contact = no flying there (exception: a local pilot known to me has phoned them up and got all the info
).
Last edited by peterh337; 7th Aug 2012 at 16:44.
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Nov charlie you might be surprised if you do the numbers that it is much less of a detour than you think particularly if you are coasting out at sfd. Given the extra time getting into paris (and cost) i bet it will be almost as quick and cheaper. Also where else would you stop for customs with l2k and better still lille being easy cheap options.
Toussus is easy and the airspace actually isnt daunting but looks it. Plan logically and it will fall into place or let us know if not. I have not done it but i gather its not great for getting into paris but others will know better whats involved.
Toussus is easy and the airspace actually isnt daunting but looks it. Plan logically and it will fall into place or let us know if not. I have not done it but i gather its not great for getting into paris but others will know better whats involved.
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" When I cross into the French FIR, who do I speak to? "
Only one answer for VFR traffic : to LILLE INFO 120.275 MHz
Please look at the SIV charts (SIV = Service d'Information en Vol = FIS)
> go to : Actualités
DIRCAM internet site (French Services)
>> on the left side : A VUE FRANCE
>>> Cartes des SIV (wait uploading and scroll down)
( http://www.dircam.air.defense.gouv.f...AC_SIV_1.1.pdf )
You could check this frequency on Lille LFQQ VAC chart.
Hope that helps !
Only one answer for VFR traffic : to LILLE INFO 120.275 MHz
Please look at the SIV charts (SIV = Service d'Information en Vol = FIS)
> go to : Actualités
DIRCAM internet site (French Services)
>> on the left side : A VUE FRANCE
>>> Cartes des SIV (wait uploading and scroll down)
( http://www.dircam.air.defense.gouv.f...AC_SIV_1.1.pdf )
You could check this frequency on Lille LFQQ VAC chart.
Hope that helps !
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Of all the Paris airfields, the one with the easiest and quickest public transport links is St Cyr L'Ecole, but it's certainly about as challenging as it gets in terms of surrounding airspace and local procedures. Requires a full briefing from someone in the know and a good session with Google Earth to prepare. Hence why see almost no foreign aircraft there, although their circuit often gets busted (scarily so...) by non-F-reg regularly in Summer.
Toussus nearby is a good choice too logistically, with taxi or bus to nearest RER. However,local procedures are again strict (picture plods with binos checking out your circuits, I kid you not...), although probably not an issue with G-reg inbound on wider joins.
Agree all that's been said on Pontoise, Lognes and Meaux. If was coming in from over the Channel, especially for first time, I'd make my life easy and head to one of the fields to the E/NE and keep away from trouble might get into trying to head round to SW.
If needing to head to SW corner of Paris, I'd try and get in touch with someone at one of the clubs/ATC at the airfields and get all the relevent diagrams.
Toussus nearby is a good choice too logistically, with taxi or bus to nearest RER. However,local procedures are again strict (picture plods with binos checking out your circuits, I kid you not...), although probably not an issue with G-reg inbound on wider joins.
Agree all that's been said on Pontoise, Lognes and Meaux. If was coming in from over the Channel, especially for first time, I'd make my life easy and head to one of the fields to the E/NE and keep away from trouble might get into trying to head round to SW.
If needing to head to SW corner of Paris, I'd try and get in touch with someone at one of the clubs/ATC at the airfields and get all the relevent diagrams.
Last edited by betterfromabove; 7th Aug 2012 at 23:04.
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IFR alternate for Lognes
I am planning "Z" flight plan from Poland to Paris, Lognes LFPL,
in case of bad weather - does anybody know reasonable IFR alternative for Lognes? I thought about Le Bourget but it may be expensive?
in case of bad weather - does anybody know reasonable IFR alternative for Lognes? I thought about Le Bourget but it may be expensive?
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The cheapest and probably easiest is Lille. If you need to get to Paris its still easy on the train and no problem leaving the aircraft at Lille. Lille is very cheap and very friendly. Its also not far for a diversion and I guess you will know whether you are likely to make a visual arrival in good time before.
You will he held down below the CdG TMA well before Lognes so you will need to work out a let down anyway if above an undercast. Problems will arise if the undercast goes down to not much above 1,000 feet by which time unless it is local I suspect Lille will seem an attractive option. If its a bit above then with a descent to the east VMC below will work fine.
Reminds me of happy days stuck on the ground at Lognes with less than 400 feet for a solid twenty four hours. I well recall our thinking about an IFR departure but my friend ended up going commercial from CdG. He reckoned it was one of the worst flights he had ever had the turbulence was really unpleasant. They were indeed happy days to have stayed on the ground. The next day we did the channel in formation with a Yak, arriving into almost as miserable weather in the UK, but without the turbulence thank goodness. Nearly required a diversion mind you. I still remember going up the Eiffel tower while we were waiting for the weather, got less than half way up and we couldn't see a thing.
You will he held down below the CdG TMA well before Lognes so you will need to work out a let down anyway if above an undercast. Problems will arise if the undercast goes down to not much above 1,000 feet by which time unless it is local I suspect Lille will seem an attractive option. If its a bit above then with a descent to the east VMC below will work fine.
Reminds me of happy days stuck on the ground at Lognes with less than 400 feet for a solid twenty four hours. I well recall our thinking about an IFR departure but my friend ended up going commercial from CdG. He reckoned it was one of the worst flights he had ever had the turbulence was really unpleasant. They were indeed happy days to have stayed on the ground. The next day we did the channel in formation with a Yak, arriving into almost as miserable weather in the UK, but without the turbulence thank goodness. Nearly required a diversion mind you. I still remember going up the Eiffel tower while we were waiting for the weather, got less than half way up and we couldn't see a thing.