What happens in an actual FL?

[paulp]

Just remember that the group replying is a selective one. They are the ones who survived! Unfortunately, we can't hear from the ones who didn't so we don't get to hear what not to do.

[PompeyPaul]

Agree

Yep,

Internet forums pretty much represent 0.0001% of the community, or less, and are generally representative of an extremely small, highly vocal majority.

Individual mileage may vary etc etc

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Read relevant AAIB reports for what not to do. If you get an EFATO you'll be at low speed and climbing. Get the nose down IMMEDIATELY. Don't pi55 about looking for the problem or getting on the radio. FLY THE AEROPLANE. If you omit to do that (and some have), nothing else matters 'cause you'll probably be dead.

Much better to crash ahead even into an unpromising area than to stall / spin in.

[ChampChump]

I've had one, which at under 1200' was a no-brainer. There was no warning; the engine stopped after sounding healthy for the preceding 2 hours.

I've been saying ever since it was the best luck for several reasons. A hot, sunny, windless day, over Lincolnshire; the chosen triangular field turned out to be owned by a farming family who used to have crop dusters based there; the subsequent discoveries made the repairs all but a total rebuild, but I now have the most beautiful 66 yr old aeroplane; lastly, I proved that certain parts of my experience and training were highly useful.

I have always had half an eye on landable fields and this, plus gliding experience, made a quick decision relatively easy. The rest happened very fast, very slowly.

Unless you are the ace of the base, with a lot of height in hand, the priority must be aviate, navigate, communicate. And even then, the same applies. Always. I found that by about 700' I had time to consider a radio call, but as I'd not been talking to anyone, the millitary in the area were closed for the weekend and I was low, it would have been pretty pointless. I didn't expect anyone to fly the aeroplane for me and was pretty confident that I could land in my chosen field and avoid the cows.

Just my two pennyworth.

[waldopepper42]

Slight thread drift - a friend of mine, superb pilot who does a lot of flight testing for the LAAers on the field (and has had more than his fair share of in flight problems as a result) once had a complete engine failure but managed to get the a/c back to the field in one piece, albeit minus a cylinder. When asked why he went for the airfield, his answer? "I couldn't find a school or hospital to just miss, so I decided to go home"!

[Whopity]

I'm curious to know what it's actually like though,

Its just like flying a glider, they do it once on every flight.

Every event will be different so its unlikely that any two experiences will be the same, that's why you practice for the worst case and hope you'll get something better. Why is it that people train for an occurrence and then in the event that it happens seem keen to do something different?

[Piltdown Man]

I was flying PA38 on a dual cross country exercise in Western Australia and my instructor came out with a "Jeeez! Did you see that!" looking to the left, behind the aircraft. Well suckered, I too looked to see what he said he could see. I saw nothing. He then said he thought his eyes were playing up. About two minutes later, the engine stopped. We were at 4,000' or so. "Oh" I said, "We'll be late for the pub." However, the fields in WA are pretty big and fortunately there was a town nearby with a a large building with "Fosters" written on the roof. Sanctuary. So I started to make my way to the (very large - 2 to 3 square miles) field. My instructor was now getting a bit nervous. "Aren't you going to do any checks mate?" I told him I wasn't as I hadn't touched anything I reckoned the engine had just quit and as there was a pub nearby, why bother. Eventually, after much persuasion, I did the checks only to find some bastard had turned the fuel off. The fuel was turned back on and we tried to re-start the engine, but it was having none of it! So I did a deal with him. He tries to restart and and I'll perform a field landing if he fails. The engine finally came to life at a couple of hundred feet. We both learnt lots from that one!

PM

[vee-tail-1]

PA38 in S Africa. I am on a check out flight with an instructor. All going well then at 1500 ft agl he pulls the throttle closed and announces a simulated engine failure. I had been expecting something like that so had already noted a short bush airstrip within easy landing distance. Emergency checks completed I turned to line up for an approach to the strip, noting the wind direction from a convenient windpump located near the threshold. All went well until I realised that something was going wrong with my carefully set up approach ... we were overshooting the aiming point and the ground speed seemed much too high ... in fact we were about to miss the strip altogether!
The instructor restored power and took over ... he then pointed to a wisp of smoke from a village in the distance, and compared it to the rusty windpump stuck in its false wind direction. We were trying to land downwind with a good 20 knts on our tail! Good lesson for me ... beware complacency

[inbalance]

This: http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4467/p1030196i.jpg

is a part of an exhaust valve of a gipsy major engine.
It was fitted to a tiger moth I once flew.

The valve shaft came lose from the rest of the valve and the part shown in the picture dropped into the cylinder.

That happened 2 minutes after departure of Kassel airport in germany.
The engine was running very rough and we where trailing smoke, but still producing some power. Maybe 50%.
I wasn´t able to maintain altitude, but was able to strech the glide a little.

I turned back to the airport and made a succesfull landing.
The engine however was scrap. A hole in no. 3 Piston and a lot of metal debris in the oil.
But the aircraft was saved.

During take off an inside voice told me not to turn on my planned heading to early, because it would have brought me over higher terrain. So I continued on runway heading longer to get more altitude. That has saved my life and the aircraft.

I kept this valve as a souvenir.

Inbalance

[foxmoth]

I had time to consider a radio call, but as I'd not been talking to anyone, the millitary in the area were closed for the weekend and I was low, it would have been pretty pointless.

A good reason, even if not in touch with them to either have the radio on a local frequency that others nearby will be on, London (or other appropriate) info or 121.5, although the agency itself might be out of range there will probably be other aircraft that will pick up your call!

[Rod1]

I have had one total just after takoff and one partial. With the EFATO I had a plan before takoff and just followed it with no time to think, got back on the ground without any damage – crank had failed due to faulty manufacture. The partial was more of an issue. I was over the Cairngorms when I got a very rough running engine. Best I could manage was going down at 50fpm which gave some time to plan but not much. There was a parachuting site not too far away and with the help of ATC we got down ok, much to the relief of my two passengers. A mag had failed and the other mag had an unknown wiring issue which had been there for some time – C of A aircraft looked after by a top firm…

My advice is always have a plan for EFATO before you start the takeoff. If you have a problem in flight, knowing your location and what is around you saves a lot of time which you might not have. The site I landed at was mostly behind the aircraft so if we had not turned immediately we would have had very few good option. Very few inflight failures are total, most are reduced power. Reduced power is almost never practiced and is hard to handle. If this happens make sure you do not stall.

Rod1

[rusty sparrow]

It's happened to me twice:

1. PFLs in a Cessna 150 when the instructor pulled the mix control out to stop the engine on downwind at around 800'. It came all the way out of the dashboard so I continued the landing, this time in a glider.

2. Rough running engine in a Jodel D9 - engine dying below around 1800 and carb heat having no effect. Got back to the field prepared to turn in early and land crosswind. Finally died at around 200' on final as I reduced power. Nose down to keep 60 knt and then one of my best ever landings. Carburettor jets needed replacing.

Number 2, really started about 10 miles from the field when the engine neary died as I throttled back after the climb - and took about 15 min from start to finish. Apart from an initial Oh S***! it all went well. No time for any fear as there's too much to think about - the engine was still going but I didn't know if it might stop at any moment so was scanning for fields and concentrating on maintaining best flying speed.

I have had a few hundred flights in gliders and that gives you a hell of a lot of confidence when the engine does quit.

[Pace]

I have had one in a single and one in a twin.
The Single was in a PA28! I had just got my PPL back in the 80s and had come into flying from racing Cars.
I took a friend for a flight and as all the 150s were being used took the PA28 which i had just been checked out on.
Not having much money back then I decided I could afford no more than 30 minutes in the PA28 a more expensive aircraft than the 150s.
We made a direct climb to the north to 10,000 feet and not being experienced or really knowing what I was doing decided to try and make a straight in from 10,000 feet.
I descended fast with a closed throttle trying to get onto final for the southerly runway! No good I was still going much to fast to land so instead decided to impress the crowd around the control tower by doing a high speed low pass, a pull up, a tight circuit and a landing off that.
Pulling up the whole machine started shuddering and applying power made the shuddering worse.
I was only a couple of hundred feet high and loosing altitude. Ahead was a field and realising I was going down I made a perfect almost glide approach into the field.
Just as I flared to touchdown the passenger took fright, panicked, pushed the door open and attempted to jump out.
The aircraft touched down and thinking he would break his neck jumping out I reach over grabbing his jumper.
The aircraft was now trundling down the field with him on the wing me halfway out of the door and no one at the controls.
I could hold on no longer and let him go into the field where thankfully he was unharmed!
I clambered back onto the controls but by then it was too late to stop the aircraft which demolished a hedge.
Sadly in the middle of the hedge was a chopped off treestump which sliced through the wing.
The next morning the event was all over local radio and press.
I was a hot headed fresh out of car racing idiot, a new pilot who thought I could do more than I could!
The CFI examined the crash site and the touchdown point and speed were perfect.
Had my friend not lost the plot and attempted to jump out or had I let him go and stayed with the aircraft it would have stopped easily aircraft undamaged!
But sadly the aircraft was out of action for some time a hard lesson learnt!

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Pace

I have had one in a single and one in a twin.
The Single was in a PA28! I had just got my PPL back in the 80s and had come into flying from racing Cars.
I took a friend for a flight and as all the 150s were being used took the PA28 which i had just been checked out on.
Not having much money back then I decided I could afford no more than 30 minutes in the PA28 a more expensive aircraft than the 150s.
We made a direct climb to the north to 10,000 feet and not being experienced or really knowing what I was doing decided to try and make a straight in from 10,000 feet.
I descended fast with a closed throttle trying to get onto final for the southerly runway! No good I was still going much to fast to land so instead decided to impress the crowd around the control tower by doing a high speed low pass, a pull up, a tight circuit and a landing off that.
Pulling up the whole machine started shuddering and applying power made the shuddering worse.
I was only a couple of hundred feet high and loosing altitude. Ahead was a field and realising I was going down I made a perfect almost glide approach into the field.
Just as I flared to touchdown the passenger took fright, panicked, pushed the door open and attempted to jump out.
The aircraft touched down and thinking he would break his neck jumping out I reach over grabbing his jumper.
The aircraft was now trundling down the field with him on the wing me halfway out of the door and no one at the controls.
I could hold on no longer and let him go into the field where thankfully he was unharmed!
I clambered back onto the controls but by then it was too late to stop the aircraft which demolished a hedge.
Sadly in the middle of the hedge was a chopped off treestump which sliced through the wing.
The next morning the event was all over local radio and press.
I was a hot headed fresh out of car racing idiot, a new pilot who thought I could do more than I could!
The CFI examined the crash site and the touchdown point and speed were perfect.
Had my friend not lost the plot and attempted to jump out or had I let him go and stayed with the aircraft it would have stopped easily undamaged. But sadly the aircraft was out of action for some time a hard lesson learnt!

Pace

At the risk of being rude I have a big problem with the fact that your take away from this incident seems to be "it's the passengers fault that the aircraft was damaged".

How about the less then ideal decisions on your part, like

1) A power off descent from 10,000 feet, that unsurprisingly leads to an engine that doesn't want to report for duty when you bang up the throttle, and

2) You decide to fix a too high too fast approach by doing a "low pass, a pull up, a tight circuit and a landing off that". I again find it unsurprising that the passenger was rather freaked out and when it all went bad could only think about getting out.

It would seem to me based on your description only good luck put a field in front of you and the fact that nobody was hurt, largely occurred despite your actions, not because of them.

[Pace]

BigPistons

Totally agree but it was a long time ago 25 plus years!!!Hot foot out of car racing and a new and inexperienced PPL! I have not put a foot wrong since!! Then in my twenties now getting grey We do learn!! some of us with harder lessons than others.

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Rod1

. Very few inflight failures are total, most are reduced power. Reduced power is almost never practiced and is hard to handle. If this happens make sure you do not stall.

Rod1

Rod 1 makes a very good point here. The sudden complete engine failure with no prior warning that is the standard beginning to practice forced approaches at flying schools is in fact the least likely scenario for a real world engine failure. A partial failure is more likely then a complete loss of engine power and is a scenario that is almost never covered in training. I make a point of making sure that my students know the approximate minimum RPM (for fixed pitched props) that will maintain level flight. That way in the event of a partial power loss a quick determination if the airplane is going down now or can at least initially hang in there maintaining altitude can be made and a plan developed accordingly

The accident statistics show that approximately 80 % of all real engine failures are caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot, with fuel exhaustion/mismanagement/contamination and carb icing being the most common. So obviously preventing the engine from failing in the first place is preferable then having an "FL" story to post on pprune.

However another area that flight training doesn't do very well IMO is place sufficient emphasis techniques to getting the engine going again if it fails. A fellow at the flying club I sometimes teach at crashed his C 172 after an engine failure in inhospitable terrain. The airplane was wrecked and there were serious injuries but thankfully no deaths. The tragedy was that when the wreckage was examined the fuel selector was set to the left tank which was empty but there was still 10 gals of fuel in the right tank. He was at 3500 feet AGL when the engine stopped and a quick "cause" check would have restored power. Instead he was so fixated on flying the forced approach procedure like his instructor taught him he never made any attempt to find out why the engine failed.

Mechanical failures do occur so there is still a possibility an engine can fail on any flight. The engine failure that I had on a single engine airplane (Cessna 150) occurred when a tooth broke on the oil pump drive gear. This caused the gear to disintegrate over a period of about 5 minutes until the oil pump drive failed completely resulting in a total loss of oil pressure. Fortunately for me my CPL instructor (old school ex RCAF) beat into me the habit of regularly scanning the engine gauges and making a mental note where each one was pointing. This allowed me to catch the dropping oil pressure early enough to head back to the airport and by the time the oil pressure went to zero I was established on a comfortable gliding final to the runway which allowed me to shut down the engine and make an uneventful landing.

[DeltaV]

A friend of mine had the throttle cable break on his single. The spring took the throttle to full open so instead of having insufficient power to stay aloft he had too much to get down. He had no option but to position for a landing then switch off the mags for a glide approach.

[peterh337]

Why not use the mixture lever?

[hum]

What hapened for me

First time it happened to me was in a Harrier on short finals, semi thrust-borne. Simulator training kicked in and I ejected immediately (convinced I was going to be in trouble for not doing any of the drills). It was later pointed out to me that I was very fortunate indeed not to have attempted any of the immediate actions as I would not have survived.

Next forced landing resulted from an in flight shut-down during a decent from mid 20's FL cruise on a twin turbo-prop due to a frozen throttle cable; not normally a big deal. However, when the prop failed to feather it turned into a forced landing as the aircraft would not maintain altitude. Here GPS was vital to work out exactly where to go to achieve a safe landing in an unfamiliar area.

Next one was simple enough, a fuel selector valve blockage resulted in a partial engine failure after take-off in a light piston type at around 300 ft off the end of a farm strip. It stopped completely on a tight downwind. Luckily crop had recently been harvested and I was able to land across the normal strip without damage.

The next one was during my first trip in an unfamiliar complex homebuilt type I was ferrying from UK to Europe.. Just crossed the channel when the engine note changed slightly... I did the usual things with fuel, carb heat etc but then vibration and a nasty smell followed so I decided it was going to stop... Not ideal at 1500 ft (cloudbase) with standing corn everywhere.. Pan call, GPS nearest.. airfield.. go to.. thankfully St Omer appeared 2 miles ahead as the prop stopped and I got away with a downwind landing with no further drama.. a conrod had come through the side of the engine.

In summary I would say I agree with Big Pistons: prevent, fault analyse, know your systems. However, when it turns pear-shaped it is nice to have practiced forced landings realistically (ie all the way to the ground) recently. know the glide characteristics, I usually think 2 miles per 1000 ft (ie 1:12) for most GA piston aircraft. Try this: 'calibrate' yourself in your aircraft - fly 2 miles from a known point at 1000 ft (or 4 at 2000 ft) and see where it 'cuts' through your field of view.. that's the 'cone' you can reach nil wind.. Think wind, it will, of course, have a huge effect on where you can reach. Use the GPS.

Don't get slow.

Be lucky ;-)

[Pace]

Don't get slow.

Very interesting history of your FLs!
Your statement highlighted is the most important of all as its pilots who stall aircraft.
Far better to fly under control into maybe something less than ideal than to stall / spin into the ground in a FL.
That is the killer in a FL not taking out a hedge or ground looping etc
Do not fixate on a chosen landing spot but always have "outs" left or right of your track! Don't be afraid to use them if your chosen landing spot looks pear shaped! Never ever try to stretch the glide!
Enroute always be aware of surface wind and direction! Get that from smoke or even lakes below !

Pace