What happens in an actual FL?
Pompey till I die
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 51
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What happens in an actual FL?
I've wondered this a few times. If it ever did happen to me I've presumed that I would just go through the drill, put down into a field, and retire for tea and crumpets.
I'm curious to know what it's actually like though, especially from relatively low hours (sub 200) PPLs
What happened when the donkey gave out? Did you react almost immediately? Did it take a while to sink in?
Did you trim out and then go through the restart? What did you think when the restart was unsuccessful ?
Did you then select the field and approach? Was it thought or was it all automatic? Did the aircraft fly the same as it would with power idle and trimmed out? Any noticeable differences?
I've always presumed I'd react to it almost as an automatic pilot. I'm simply there for the ride whilst my body goes through the drilled motions. I've practised it so many times it now feels as natural a reaction as breathing.
That said, I've never done it for real.....
I'm curious to know what it's actually like though, especially from relatively low hours (sub 200) PPLs
What happened when the donkey gave out? Did you react almost immediately? Did it take a while to sink in?
Did you trim out and then go through the restart? What did you think when the restart was unsuccessful ?
Did you then select the field and approach? Was it thought or was it all automatic? Did the aircraft fly the same as it would with power idle and trimmed out? Any noticeable differences?
I've always presumed I'd react to it almost as an automatic pilot. I'm simply there for the ride whilst my body goes through the drilled motions. I've practised it so many times it now feels as natural a reaction as breathing.
That said, I've never done it for real.....
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forced Landing either powered or unpowered.
Most folk forget that you can still be forced to land with the engine working.
Perfectly acceptable doing a controlled landing into a field given the option of doing that or going into IMC untrained.
Most folk forget that you can still be forced to land with the engine working.
Perfectly acceptable doing a controlled landing into a field given the option of doing that or going into IMC untrained.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've got around 150 hours powered. I've had carb ice which made the engine cough a bit. My immediate response (I'm talking about a second or so after the first splutter) was to decide the wind direction at surface and look for a good field, probably another five-ten seconds. I then selected carb heat as my first option which cleared it. It wasn't something I'd drilled myself on; I just did it. You can muck around with the engine, talk to people etc after you have decided where you're going if it all turns dog.
I'm not even sure that's the way I was 'formally' trained to do it now, but that's how I reacted.
Having said all that, I'm a glider jock so having a likely looking field in view is just something I do subconsciously.
I'm not even sure that's the way I was 'formally' trained to do it now, but that's how I reacted.
Having said all that, I'm a glider jock so having a likely looking field in view is just something I do subconsciously.
Moderator
It's where you reach up for that handle above your head but don't actually pull it
I've only done four actual forced landings. It was with great fortune that each one was into a field or runway from which the aircraft could be flown out following a resumption to airworthy, and no damage was done.
None were a problem, and two were much to low to consider attempts to restart. just get it back on the ground, and deal with it there. The most public was ice crystals in the fuel on a very cold winter day, sightseeing over downtown Toronto. Happily, when the 182 quit right beside the CN tower (really tall), I just told the Toronto Island Airport controller that I'd had an engine failure, and was landing right now, and he cleared the airport for me. Can't mess up the landing though, as 5 of the 6 undershoots/overruns end up in the lake.
I've been trying to cut down on real forced landings as I get older, and just practice.....
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10 replies before someone turns up who's done it for real.
It sure gets your attention when it goes quiet. I've made 3, for real, engine quit, forced landings but like Pilot DAR I too was fortunate in being over or near a strip each time and just landed. On each occasion I was not high enough to consider an airstart so just focused on making the field.
Stopping the prop gives a better glide, the disc seems draggier than just the stationary blades.
It sure gets your attention when it goes quiet. I've made 3, for real, engine quit, forced landings but like Pilot DAR I too was fortunate in being over or near a strip each time and just landed. On each occasion I was not high enough to consider an airstart so just focused on making the field.
Stopping the prop gives a better glide, the disc seems draggier than just the stationary blades.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always keep track of landing fields, one my GPSes usually has the NRST page open. A general idea of the wind direction is always good to have, therefore one of the things I like most about my new Aspen is air data computer with the wind vector displayed all the time. Until some time ago, I used to verbally comment on forced landing options from time to time but this made my passengers freak out 
I've had a real one while being checked out in a Motorfalke. The owner assured me there was enough fuel for a few circuits. However, the pitch attitude on the climb out uncovered the fuel line and the engine stopped.
The owner took over and we turned back and barely got the wings level before touching down on the adjacent runway on the triangular runway field (BCATP Innisfail, AB). There was no way we would have made it back to the runway we took off from, without bending the aircraft.
Two lesson learned from that. Always take more fuel and don't turn back until you are really high enough. There were plenty of fields ahead. I think the owner was motivated by not wanting to de-rig and hand carry the aircraft back to the airfield!
The owner took over and we turned back and barely got the wings level before touching down on the adjacent runway on the triangular runway field (BCATP Innisfail, AB). There was no way we would have made it back to the runway we took off from, without bending the aircraft.
Two lesson learned from that. Always take more fuel and don't turn back until you are really high enough. There were plenty of fields ahead. I think the owner was motivated by not wanting to de-rig and hand carry the aircraft back to the airfield!
Last edited by India Four Two; 31st Jul 2012 at 12:53. Reason: Clarification
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Twice for me, first was with power, classic of a forecast being more optimistic than it turned out, picked a nice big field with a farmhouse at the end for a cuppa while we waited the wx out and a bit of a non event apart from the field being very sticky for departure, so long that I tried to take off downwind (only 5kts or less) but the Pup150 accelerated to about 2kts below TO speed and would not go any faster, just stopped, turned into wind and all OK. The farmers wife was a bit surprised when we knocked on the door and said sorry, but we have left our aircraft in your field!
Second was a dH82a doing Aeros, but had made sure before starting that we were in a good area for fields, always a good idea if doing aeros in an aircraft with no starter motor!
Second was a dH82a doing Aeros, but had made sure before starting that we were in a good area for fields, always a good idea if doing aeros in an aircraft with no starter motor!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: suffolk
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a real one
When mine engine failed for real ...12000ft VMC on top of Alaska range of big mountains with only lakes and trees and rocks below..was not much fun. three things only to do.
don't panic
fly the plane accurately
be glad you did lots of PFLs in years gone by.
Still here to tell he tale
don't panic
fly the plane accurately
be glad you did lots of PFLs in years gone by.
Still here to tell he tale
Guest
Posts: n/a
Be prepared for time apparently stopping. That's what really took me by surprise.
I've had one, sudden and without warning, engine failure. Literally BANG. Propeller stopped. My abiding memory is that I felt I could slide the hood back, step out onto the wing, walk out to the tip, have a look at the cowling and get back in. Then I snapped back into reality, time ran as normal and training took over.
I've had one other experience of time stopping like that, but it wasn't an engine failure - somebody tried to roll off the top of a loop with what I knew was too low an airspeed. I'd had my engine failure by then so knew what the time-stopping was.
I've had one, sudden and without warning, engine failure. Literally BANG. Propeller stopped. My abiding memory is that I felt I could slide the hood back, step out onto the wing, walk out to the tip, have a look at the cowling and get back in. Then I snapped back into reality, time ran as normal and training took over.
I've had one other experience of time stopping like that, but it wasn't an engine failure - somebody tried to roll off the top of a loop with what I knew was too low an airspeed. I'd had my engine failure by then so knew what the time-stopping was.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like Foxmoth I once had to put an L4 Cub into a field en-route not due to engine failure. It was big field, and the only problem was that the group of cattle up at the far end were curious and wanted to eat the Cub so I couldn't leave the aeroplane. My mate found help in the form of a local microlight pilot who pointed out a stock-free field nearby that he used regularly; smaller than 'my' field, but big enough. So I started up (which caused the cattle to run away) and took off to land in the other field.
The really hard thing I had to do was to actually make the descision to cease 'pressing on' and to land, with all the inconvenience that causes. The self-imposed pressure to defer the 'land' descison was almost overpowering, and one can see how some accidents happen when that descison is delayed too long.
The second occasion required no descison from me. Climbing out of Barton on 09 in the Chipmunk, the engine coughed as we crossed the fence. I made a mental note to stay in the overhead until I was entirely happy that the engine was OK, but a few seconds lated all hell broke loose. The engine started misfiring and vibrating, and lost a lot of power. Instinctively I lowered the nose and looked for somewhere to put it on the ground, but that climb out is notorious for being heavily built up. But despite the appalling cacaphony and vibration I found I could just maintain height (about 300 feet) so commenced a very gentle left turn to downwind.
Because of the noise, I couldn't hear the radio despite using headsets in the Chippy, so transmitted blind 'SL partial engine failure, immediate return to land'. This I repepated several times in case someome else was transmitting and my transmission hadn't been heard. The implied message was 'this is My runway and I AM LANDING; everyone else clear off!'
During the ever so gentle turn to downwind three white swans flew majestically past at our level going the other way. Both myself and Mike (in the back seat) remember this as quite surreal in the circumstances!
I hugged the northern boundary of the field until abeam the 09 numbers, pulled off what little power remained, while turning in to land, noting the fire truck following us along the runway. Once on the ground at the engineer's hangar the engine seemed not too bad, but a run up had it jumping and popping in the airframe. The diagnosis was old spark plugs breaking down at high power (the engine used an old-style plug, and even 'new' ones off the shelf were about 40 years old). We had the heads modded after that to take 'modern' plugs instead!
Looking back I realise I didn't have to make any descisions. It was 'Pavlov's dog' reaction; loss of power, lower the nose. No thinking about it (there isn't time when the aeroplane is slow and climbing and suddenly loses power - it HAS to be instinctive). And we were extremely lucky that it continued to give us enough power to remain airborn.
Chances are if you have an EFATO you'll simply revert to the many times you've practiced it, and your actions will be automatic. We were lucky in that I didn't actually have to pick a place to put us down off the airfield (very difficult off 09), so I'm still not sure if I'd handle that all right!
The really hard thing I had to do was to actually make the descision to cease 'pressing on' and to land, with all the inconvenience that causes. The self-imposed pressure to defer the 'land' descison was almost overpowering, and one can see how some accidents happen when that descison is delayed too long.
The second occasion required no descison from me. Climbing out of Barton on 09 in the Chipmunk, the engine coughed as we crossed the fence. I made a mental note to stay in the overhead until I was entirely happy that the engine was OK, but a few seconds lated all hell broke loose. The engine started misfiring and vibrating, and lost a lot of power. Instinctively I lowered the nose and looked for somewhere to put it on the ground, but that climb out is notorious for being heavily built up. But despite the appalling cacaphony and vibration I found I could just maintain height (about 300 feet) so commenced a very gentle left turn to downwind.
Because of the noise, I couldn't hear the radio despite using headsets in the Chippy, so transmitted blind 'SL partial engine failure, immediate return to land'. This I repepated several times in case someome else was transmitting and my transmission hadn't been heard. The implied message was 'this is My runway and I AM LANDING; everyone else clear off!'
During the ever so gentle turn to downwind three white swans flew majestically past at our level going the other way. Both myself and Mike (in the back seat) remember this as quite surreal in the circumstances!
I hugged the northern boundary of the field until abeam the 09 numbers, pulled off what little power remained, while turning in to land, noting the fire truck following us along the runway. Once on the ground at the engineer's hangar the engine seemed not too bad, but a run up had it jumping and popping in the airframe. The diagnosis was old spark plugs breaking down at high power (the engine used an old-style plug, and even 'new' ones off the shelf were about 40 years old). We had the heads modded after that to take 'modern' plugs instead!
Looking back I realise I didn't have to make any descisions. It was 'Pavlov's dog' reaction; loss of power, lower the nose. No thinking about it (there isn't time when the aeroplane is slow and climbing and suddenly loses power - it HAS to be instinctive). And we were extremely lucky that it continued to give us enough power to remain airborn.
Chances are if you have an EFATO you'll simply revert to the many times you've practiced it, and your actions will be automatic. We were lucky in that I didn't actually have to pick a place to put us down off the airfield (very difficult off 09), so I'm still not sure if I'd handle that all right!
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 31st Jul 2012 at 09:56.
Firstly an engine failure does not necessarily lead to a forced landing, and a forced landing is not necessarily precipitated by an engine failure.
I've had half a dozen engine failures during low speed testing on homebuilts (always for some reason with Jabiru engines). On all but one of them, training kicked straight in and I restarted the engine, the last I was on short finals for a glide approach anyhow and there didn't seem much point so I just landed it.
I've done two precautionary / forced landings due to descending cloudbase and deteriorating visibility, both in flexwing microlights. Both times I set up a constant aspect circuit onto my preferred bit of field, and flew a low/tight/CA circuit from the start of the downwind leg to landing. Both were (relatively) uneventful - one into an empty meadow, one onto a golf course.
I've had an engine stop flying aeros in a Gypsy Major equipped Auster. I put the nose down to 110mph, fish-tailed a bit, and slowly advanced the throttle; the engine started happily at about 1/3rd throttle and I continued with the sortie.
I've had a genuine engine failure (blocked fuel filter it turned out to be) with a 2-stroke Rotax in a flexwing microlight. I was lowish, over a huge stubble field, and pointed roughly into wind. So I landed, got a lift home, trailered the aeroplane back, and sorted it out in the hangar.
And the only one that really spooked me, was severe rough running in a large vintage aeroplane taking off from a busy GA airfield with limited options on climb-out. As the engine hadn't fully stopped, I elected to turn back - due a strongish wind and residual thrust I clearly was going to overrun the runway (despite max sideslip). However, I used the residual height and power to turn 270degrees to land on a disused crosswind runway. Taxied off, did a quick engine run, identified (a) fault: it eventually turned out to be a combination of elderly carbs and fouled plugs, put it in the hangar, thanked the tower, debriefed with my student, got in my car to drive home. Shut the car door, and went to pieces. Half an hour later I pulled myself together again, drove home very slowly, then got quietly p****d. Next day I was fine.
G
I've had half a dozen engine failures during low speed testing on homebuilts (always for some reason with Jabiru engines). On all but one of them, training kicked straight in and I restarted the engine, the last I was on short finals for a glide approach anyhow and there didn't seem much point so I just landed it.
I've done two precautionary / forced landings due to descending cloudbase and deteriorating visibility, both in flexwing microlights. Both times I set up a constant aspect circuit onto my preferred bit of field, and flew a low/tight/CA circuit from the start of the downwind leg to landing. Both were (relatively) uneventful - one into an empty meadow, one onto a golf course.
I've had an engine stop flying aeros in a Gypsy Major equipped Auster. I put the nose down to 110mph, fish-tailed a bit, and slowly advanced the throttle; the engine started happily at about 1/3rd throttle and I continued with the sortie.
I've had a genuine engine failure (blocked fuel filter it turned out to be) with a 2-stroke Rotax in a flexwing microlight. I was lowish, over a huge stubble field, and pointed roughly into wind. So I landed, got a lift home, trailered the aeroplane back, and sorted it out in the hangar.
And the only one that really spooked me, was severe rough running in a large vintage aeroplane taking off from a busy GA airfield with limited options on climb-out. As the engine hadn't fully stopped, I elected to turn back - due a strongish wind and residual thrust I clearly was going to overrun the runway (despite max sideslip). However, I used the residual height and power to turn 270degrees to land on a disused crosswind runway. Taxied off, did a quick engine run, identified (a) fault: it eventually turned out to be a combination of elderly carbs and fouled plugs, put it in the hangar, thanked the tower, debriefed with my student, got in my car to drive home. Shut the car door, and went to pieces. Half an hour later I pulled myself together again, drove home very slowly, then got quietly p****d. Next day I was fine.
G
Although not me flying, I was in the back of a DH Otter floatplane many moons ago returning to Goose Bay after a fishing trip when we had a lightning strike that stopped the donkey. I shall never forget the sight of the pilot working like a one armed paper hangar up front getting the engine re-started & time slowing down as the noise of the infernal inertia starter slowly increasing to engagement point while we sunk like a brick to almost certain oblivion.
Being able to re-start the engine depends on so many variables, not least if its in a fit (safe) state to be re-started
Being able to re-start the engine depends on so many variables, not least if its in a fit (safe) state to be re-started
Last edited by Rocket2; 1st Aug 2012 at 07:50.
Pompey till I die
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 51
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the info
Very interesting replies. I guess it confirms what I had hoped, then if / when it happens it's probably going to be an "instinctive" response rather than lots of thinking.